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The Obesity Era

aeonmagazine.com

91–96 of 96 posts

Re: The Obesity Era

#91
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone can be obese in the lower half of the body and emaciated in the top half or vice-versa. In this circumstance, your theory suggests they should simultaneously eat more AND eat less to fix it. I've met these people myself. They call themselves "women". > The viruses don't need to destroy or create energy, they just need modify the set point. "Set points" assumes that we are dealing with an automatic system. T…

> "Set points" assumes that we are dealing with an automatic system. We are dealing with an automatic system. If we weren't, people would starve or become morbidly obese whenever they moved or changed jobs such that they were walking a different amount. Or when the restaurant down the street closed and they switched to a different one. Most people's weight stays remarkably consistent over the years despite significan…

We're actually arguing about system boundaries now. In my experience, all arguments about the causes of overweight and obesity wind up as boundary disputes.

> People who are obese tend to be that way because their automatic system wants to keep them that way.

As a nitpick, people frequently read homeostasis backwards. While the body's systems can be characterised as a control system with some central governor pulling levers to keep it within certain boundaries, that's not really what happens. This appearance is actually an emergent phenomenon of interacting feedback loops. X goes down, so Y goes up. Y goes up, Z goes up. Z goes up, X goes up. X goes up, Y goes down ... and so on. Equilibrium is maintained in the long run by the summative effect of counter-acting reactions and feedback loops.

Set point theory is basically a way of saying that different folks have different appetites. When they eat ad libitum, some people eat more, some less. Their weight converges to the asymptote of TDEE that balances their diet and the increased BMR from additional weight.

This not news. The point though is that consciousness and self-awareness allows us to examine our actions and modify them. But first you must internalise the locus of control. You either accept that you are the only person who can control your weight, or you don't. Oprah is a perfect example, because by hiring trainers and cooks and so on, she can externalise control. It stops working when she gets bored and fires them. Or when she reaches her "goal weight" and, not realising that it needs to be a permanent change in behaviour, fires them.

The final problem with set-point theory is that it doesn't explain why there has been a sudden burst in overweight and obesity in the past few years in rich countries only. Calories consumed per capita does; so does the steady deflation of the rate calories-per-dollar exchange. People's appetites haven't changed. People probably always wanted the salty, fatty, sugary things. It's just that now is the first time in history that it has been massively abundant and cheap in wealthy societies.

> But the studies that run long enough do see the weight come back. Almost everyone gets the weight back, from every diet.

It's a common truism to say that "the weight comes back", and yet actually, that claim is not really supported either. The literature on long-term compliance is sparse and I suspect the waters muddied because when you perform a medically supervised diet, again the locus of control is external. HAES advocates rely on a single study performed in 1959. A single study.

Re: The Obesity Era

#92
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15351198 I don't think this citation supports your point of view.

> A systematic review of low-carbohydrate diets found that the weight loss achieved is associated with the duration of the diet and restriction of energy intake, but not with restriction of carbohydrates. Put another way: ketogenesis isn't a magic escape hatch from physics. If you eat foods rich in protein, you are satieted sooner and total calories consumed falls. Total calories consumed falls. That's what causes th…

So, you're saying that it's actually easier to lose weight with a low-carb diet? Well, then, glad we agree.

As for the "calorie is a calorie" point of view, I recommend reading the following:

http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/do-calories-matter

Re: The Obesity Era

#93
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(One study found that a group of people who lost 10% of their weight through dieting had their resting metabolism decline by an average of 15%.) Can you post a link to this study? >We don't actually know how TDEE reacts to weight loss in general I don't think this is something "we don't actually know." Lots of weight loss studies have been done in which energy expenditure has been carefully measured, so there's plen…

Okay, this is a survey from 1998 - my google-fu was not strong enough to find one more recent: http://fampra.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/2/196.full Quote: "...the majority of the studies point to a reduction in short-term resting metabolic rates that is greater than can be explained by the loss of body mass or fat-free mass over the same time period. Unfortunately, there has been very little work done over the last…

The term used these days is "adaptive thermogenesis". You can browbeat it anyhow by sufficiently undercutting caloric intake that the body can't down-regulate enough to cover the deficit. A much safer and easier way to do it is either to use a moderate deficit (studies of athletes show that with identical exercise and identical protein intake, athletes on a 500kcal deficit retain more strength and lean mass than athletes on a 1000kcal deficit) and do exercise, at least some of it with weights.

There's also the "rebound effect", which the Minnesota Starvation Experiment gives us insight into.

People stop dieting and then resume ad libitum eating. They gain fat faster than lean tissue, because gaining fat is easier than gaining lean tissue. Net effect: BF% worsens compared to baseline.

The key is not that "diets don't work, look, they make you fatter"; rather, it's that people see diets as something you do once and then stop. What's actually necessary is ongoing control of food intake.

Re: The Obesity Era

#94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A systematic review of low-carbohydrate diets found that the weight loss achieved is associated with the duration of the diet and restriction of energy intake, but not with restriction of carbohydrates. Put another way: ketogenesis isn't a magic escape hatch from physics. If you eat foods rich in protein, you are satieted sooner and total calories consumed falls. Total calories consumed falls. That's what causes th…

So, you're saying that it's actually easier to lose weight with a low-carb diet? Well, then, glad we agree. As for the "calorie is a calorie" point of view, I recommend reading the following: http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/do-calories-matter

We're arguing about different things. Some people do genuinely believe that ketogenesis is on a per-calorie basis somehow better at losing weight due to the distinct hormonal configuration. But the effect is totally predicted by net calorie balance, whether or not that balance is within observability (I can't, for example, control for my own particular thermic reaction to protein vs carbs, can't control for variation in food density blah blah blah it's on the average).

Myself personally, I like to eat substantial food and I train hard, so high protein, high carbohydrates suits me to a T.

Re: The Obesity Era

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eagerly awaiting further erudite explanation...

Firstly, the body is not a finite state machine. All the mechanisms of metabolism and there are a lot of them are, basically, active all the time. A great deal of complicated chemistry is underway, simultaneously, day and night. Including reactions whose effects cancel out, meaning that it is the balance of reactions that determines the system configuration. (Yes! It's multivariate integral calculus, back from your y…

You have an odd way of looking at things. ;) I happen to find the whole thing pretty amazing, the universe is beginning to understand itself.

Not to mention elegant in the way the human body runs perfectly on early-human food.

I'm not obese, and when eating sugar/starch I end up sleepy at times and starving a few hours later. Everyone knows it... moms have been telling us for decades if not centuries, not to give sugar to children.

Proteins/fats must be converted, meaning their glycemic index will be much lower. As such, a day or two after I substituted green-veggies & nuts for grains the difference was palpable.

I have not been stuffed or starving for over a month, lost my spare tire, and am loving it. Fits perfectly with everything I learned in chem, bio, and nutrition at uni. long before this became a movement. I don't think of this as FSM, rather differential equations such as these: http://17calculus.com/calc08-app-ccfluids.php

There are benefits to keeping blood sugar levels stable whether people want to believe it or not.

Re: The Obesity Era

#96
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just that the more sugar and starch eaten, the less time the body can stay in fat-burning mode This is 100% bullshit.

Eagerly awaiting further erudite explanation...

Fat-burning stops when you consume fat, not just when you consume carbs.

Effects of an oral and intravenous fat load on adipose tissue and forearm lipid metabolism. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9950782

"Six subjects were fasted overnight and were then given 40 g of triacylglycerol either orally or as an intravenous infusion over 4 h. Intracellular lipolysis (hormone-sensitive lipase action; HSL) was suppressed after both oral and intravenous fat loads (P < 0.001). Insulin, a major regulator of HSL activity, showed little change after either oral or intravenous fat load, suggesting that suppression of HSL action occurred independently of insulin."

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