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Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

reuters.com

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Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#91

Post by dlib »

sentenza wrote: post #36
danbruc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to surveillance the Stasi did a way better job than any NS organisation.

While I principally agree with you, I must add that _the_ data protection related historical event that impressed me most is how the Nazis used the excellent Dutch census data that fell into their hands to round up the Jews of the Netherlands. I don't know how widespread knowledge of this is (I was taught it in school), but I've heard it brought up a few times in discussions about personal data.

Indeed it was, the resistance movement tried bombed the office keeping the census data in Amsterdam in 1943 since it was so effective for the Nazis. It kept the data of over 70.000 Jews in the Amsterdam. The resistance was active in forging identity cards and having the population registry destroyed meant that there would be nothing to compare the identity cards to. Unfortunately, the bombing only resulted in the destruction of 15% of the data. Many of the resistance fighters involved were executed shortly after.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#92

Post by chalst »

arrrg wrote: post #48
rz2k wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentime…

Well … to be honest I consider 1990 the year in which occupation ended and Germany got its full sovereignty back (with the 2+4 talks and reunification). Technically that doesn’t matter at all because all through the cold war West-German and US interests were very tightly aligned (and when interests diverged a bit the US did give West-Germany enough freedom, though they hardly ever diverged much). I mean, West-Berlin…

The US has bases in countries all over the world as part of military agreements. From 1955, W. Germany has them as a NATO member vs. the Warsaw Pact countries. They're not occupations unless the armies establish control over the countries.

The US still has some of its largest overseas bases in Germany; see http://militarybases.com/overseas/germany/

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#93

Post by Fuxy »

tekromancr wrote: post #87
Cass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

WORLD WAR III: This time, the Germans are the good guys.

That would be really Ironic.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#94

Post by tekromancr »

Fuxy wrote: post #93
tekromancr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WORLD WAR III: This time, the Germans are the good guys.

That would be really Ironic.

I can just imagine the shooter videogame from 2110 That has you blasting away at charicatureized evil Americans.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#95

Post by pgeorgi »

lbebber wrote: post #65
ericd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone's interested in learning a bit more about the Stasi, The Lives of Others is a great film about a man who works for the Stasi, tasked with spying on some influential people.

It's a great film, but I've read that it's not an accurate portrayal of the Stasi.

Procedures differed somewhat and a Stasi officer wouldn't have had the operational freedom depicted in the movie (that is, his colleagues very likely would have caught him).

The story is one of those unrealistic "protagonist acts against all odds and succeeds" that make up a good movie, but the backdrop (Stasi's - sometimes not very - subtle omnipresence and the fear this evokes in society) is painfully realistic.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#96

Post by digitalengineer »

arethuza wrote: post #89
digitalengineer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds crazy but the US has plans to IN-f*cking-VADE Germany's neighbour, the Netherlands if they were ever to do a crazy thing, like arrest US soldiers for war crimes and bring them to the International Tribunal. ..."The Hague Invasion Act,[3][4] since such freeing of US citizens by force might only be possible through an invasion of The Hague, Netherlands, the seat of several international criminal courts and the s…

Countries have all kinds of crazy plans in place in case crazy things happen. e.g. The UK had plans involving "shooting guards at American nuclear weapon stores in England if they proved uncooperative" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/in-the-eve...

Correct. But the International Tribunal isn't exactly 'a crazy thing*. Would it be 'crazy' to uphold (Coalition) troops to the same standard as 'the bad guys'?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#97

Post by pgeorgi »

uh_oh wrote: post #3

Thumbs up for this coming from the conservative party as well. As others have said, this really is a bi-partisan issue and we should build as broad a coalition of the unwilling as possible.

We have elections in September, and this is an issue where they can't do anything, don't suffer in any way, but have a chance for free friendly press.

Meanwhile, the same conservative party added biometric photos and fingerprints to official documents (mandantory on some, optional on others); happily sends over flight and banking data to the US (they were in favor of the SWIFT agreement); established their own flavor of communication data ("metadata") retention policies ignoring both arguments and protects; collect traffic data "for street charge purposes only"; now want to use both for tracking down increasingly minor offenses (despite originally arguing that this wouldn't ever happen, and opponents to those laws are paranoid when assuming so much).

So yes, it's great that they oppose PRISM (if only to keep the topic in the media). But it's probably just out of jealousy because their own implementation is so much weaker.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#98

Post by [deleted] »

digitalengineer wrote: post #96
arethuza wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries have all kinds of crazy plans in place in case crazy things happen. e.g. The UK had plans involving "shooting guards at American nuclear weapon stores in England if they proved uncooperative" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/in-the-eve...

Correct. But the International Tribunal isn't exactly 'a crazy thing*. Would it be 'crazy' to uphold (Coalition) troops to the same standard as 'the bad guys'?

[deleted]

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#99

Post by arethuza »

tekromancr wrote: post #94
Fuxy wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be really Ironic.

I can just imagine the shooter videogame from 2110 That has you blasting away at charicatureized evil Americans.

I think it would be rather good fun to write Tom Clancy style sprawling techno-thriller where it was the USA who were the bad guys.

[NB This is not because I have anything against the USA, just that I've got rather bored over the years with Russia/China being the enemy of choice for authors].

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#100

Post by onli »

fwenzel wrote: post #49
onli wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the US already (slowly) withdrawing/reducing the stationed troops? Besides, germany wouldn't really have a chance. The few nuclear rockets we control would probably not be ready in time. The USA could just bomb germany down, like it was planned in case of a war with the UDSSR.

Slowly? They have been closing US military facilities in Germany for decades.

So it is slowly. If it would be fast, all of them would be closed by now.
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