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Facts about Wayland vs X

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Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#91

Post by rg3 »

colanderman wrote: post #74

What a load of bollocks. Let's tear this apart: > Versioning is handled per client, not per bind. So if your app supports one version of a given extension but your toolkit supports another, you can't predict which version of that extension you will get. Easy solution: open multiple connections. Resources can be shared between connections. (You missed the actual problem with X11 here, which is its current limit of 256…

Also, I don't understand the claim "between all of your displays you can only have 32,768 pixels". A 1920x1080 screen has over 2 million pixels (2073600 to be precise). Can anybody explain that part?

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#92

Post by SimHacker »

smosher wrote: post #82
bbatchelder wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should really read the article.

You shouldn't believe everything you read. The tone of the article is very suspicious: the author will admit nothing bad about Wayland. In particular you might want to examine the claim that VNC style remoting is better than what X does, or that X remoting is a bad VNC. In actuality VNC is equivalent to the worst-case option X has in terms of rendering. If you wanted something else it's just a bad joke.

Any comment on the fact that now ALL modern X rendering is worst-case? Why bother having all that useless complexity (have you ever read how the SHAPES extension deals with window borders?)?

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#93

Post by iso8859-1 »

SimHacker wrote: post #85
colanderman wrote: post #74

What a load of bollocks. Let's tear this apart: > Versioning is handled per client, not per bind. So if your app supports one version of a given extension but your toolkit supports another, you can't predict which version of that extension you will get. Easy solution: open multiple connections. Resources can be shared between connections. (You missed the actual problem with X11 here, which is its current limit of 256…

""Mechanism, not policy" means the X11 core protocol leaves things like window managers and clipboard selection unspecified. (The ICCCM spec takes care of this.) This is sound design." XRotateProperties() XCirculateWindow() XRotateBuffers() XStoreBytes() XStoreBuffer() XFetchBytes() XFetchBuffer() and everything to do about window borders, including how they metastasized into the Shapes extension. http://www.art.net/…

Why paste the link content here? Most people already read it, it's nothing new. I can go find 10 X quotes too, but a link should suffice. Quote pasting is no discussion.

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#94

Post by iso8859-1 »

themstheones wrote: post #28
jmhain wrote: post #12

Daniel Stone actually did a talk involving much of the same subject matter called "The Real Story behind Wayland and X". I'd recommend that over this article (which was partially written by the same guy). He's actually a really charismatic speaker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44

Thanks that was rather informative. He is quite a dramatic speaker. I'm surprised because 99% of the technical talks you hear have a speaker mumbling away about minutiae hoping enough of the crowd will fall asleep that they can slip out unnoticed.

I don't know what you are listening too, but 99% is misleading. It's quite dependent on the conference. For example, nearly all the presentations on DConf were good. You must be watching something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0fAyL4Xo2k , I guess?

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#95

Post by FooBarWidget »

SimHacker wrote: post #84
colanderman wrote: post #74

What a load of bollocks. Let's tear this apart: > Versioning is handled per client, not per bind. So if your app supports one version of a given extension but your toolkit supports another, you can't predict which version of that extension you will get. Easy solution: open multiple connections. Resources can be shared between connections. (You missed the actual problem with X11 here, which is its current limit of 256…

"But that's easily fixed with an "X12"." -- Ha ha ha! And I would like a pony with that brilliant original idea. I wonder why nobody ever suggested that before. And if that doesn't gain any traction, then solve it with "Y".

Y already exists. It was written 10 years ago, but failed to gain traction and stalled.

http://developers.slashdot.org/story/04/02/19/1628204/y-wind...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Window_System

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#96

Post by SimHacker »

toyg wrote: post #44
zqfm wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has never used X's remote access, what are its benefits over VNC?

It's usually snappier, because the client has some insight in what it's displaying and so it can accelerate stuff here and there; it also allows for root-less mode, where individual remote windows appear as normal windows to the local OS, rather than being forced to live in a monolithic "remote desktop" window. VNC is basically like a movie player: the local OS doesn't really know what the movie is displaying (in con…

"oh, you're drawing a window, lemme put a nice border on it for you!" -- That is tragically one of the worst, most useless, and rarely used examples you could come up with for something the X server is capable of doing for you (at the expense of a lot of complexity -- read the X SHAPES extension documentation about how it supports shaped window borders) ... as long as you like black-and-white tiled 1 bit deep pixmap borders.

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#97

Post by stass »

> “X is Network Transparent.” Wrong. Its not. Core X and DRI-1 were network transparent. No one uses either one. Shared-Memory, DRI-2 and DRI-3000 are NOT network transparent, they do NOT work over the network.

This is not true. X11 is network transparent, poorly designed toolkits like GTK are not. So essentially they are writing a new graphics server for Gnome/KDE. But those have never been good X11 citizens anyway.

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#98

Post by SimHacker »

iso8859-1 wrote: post #93
SimHacker wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

""Mechanism, not policy" means the X11 core protocol leaves things like window managers and clipboard selection unspecified. (The ICCCM spec takes care of this.) This is sound design." XRotateProperties() XCirculateWindow() XRotateBuffers() XStoreBytes() XStoreBuffer() XFetchBytes() XFetchBuffer() and everything to do about window borders, including how they metastasized into the Shapes extension. http://www.art.net/…

Why paste the link content here? Most people already read it, it's nothing new. I can go find 10 X quotes too, but a link should suffice. Quote pasting is no discussion.

I pasted just the part about ICCCM, because it directly addressed the point I was trying to make, and it doesn't have link anchors. I didn't assume everyone would want to wade through the entire document to get to the part about ICCCM. If most people already read all of that Unix-Haters chapter which I wrote in 1993, then that's news to me. Obviously the guy who repeatedly parroted the 20-some-year-old discredited "Mechanism not Policy" line hadn't read my criticism.

But don't lose any sleep over it: computer networks and storage devices are fast and large enough these days that it's not going to cause any meltdowns, so it's more important to save people time, than to conserve the bandwidth and disk space consumed by a few lines of text. Sorry to have wasted YOUR time that it took you to post a complaint.

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#99

Post by iso8859-1 »

colanderman wrote: post #74

What a load of bollocks. Let's tear this apart: > Versioning is handled per client, not per bind. So if your app supports one version of a given extension but your toolkit supports another, you can't predict which version of that extension you will get. Easy solution: open multiple connections. Resources can be shared between connections. (You missed the actual problem with X11 here, which is its current limit of 256…

> use GLX

Actually don't :). Eric Anholt of Intel's Open-Source Technology Center recommends stopping the use of GLX, use EGL instead. Source: http://gstconf.ubicast.tv/videos/opengl-and-mesa-development 18 minutes 50 seconds. Direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lwZdprMC4o#t=18m50s

Re: Facts about Wayland vs X

#100

Post by SimHacker »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #95
SimHacker wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But that's easily fixed with an "X12"." -- Ha ha ha! And I would like a pony with that brilliant original idea. I wonder why nobody ever suggested that before. And if that doesn't gain any traction, then solve it with "Y".

Y already exists. It was written 10 years ago, but failed to gain traction and stalled. http://developers.slashdot.org/story/04/02/19/1628204/y-wind... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Window_System

My point exactly. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No,_you_can't_have_a_... and http://i-want-a-pony.com
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