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Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

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Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#91

A lot of comments in this thread area calling for the head of Verizon and recommending boycotts, but for how much of this is Verizon really at fault? If the NSA comes knocking and tells you to turn over X, you can't exactly say "no", can you? More to the point, it's highly unlikely that this is an issue unique to Verizon; it's just the only one we've heard about so far.

So roll over and take it like a champ? If everyone thought this way, there would have been no revolution. At some point, enough is enough and I say that that point is way past.

You reckon people are going to revolt? I have serious doubts about that.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#92
post #75
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any way to fight it now. What are your suggestions? If we were to have a revolution here, even in a decade or two, we'd probably end up with something much worse than what we have now.

And if you lost faith in Congress, like 94% of Americans. You might also join a realistic effort to reform it: http://www.rootstrikers.org (ran by Lawrence Lessig, a Harvard law prof who also founded the Creative Commons movement)

Root Strikers is fundamentally misguided, they attack the symptoms instead of the cause. The root of all this corruption is how large the federal government is, any organization with that much power and money will be co-opted.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#93

Take a look at your technology with an engineer's eye. If it can be done, they probably will. If it can be done easily they probably already are. You may as well just assume this is always the case. In the current political climate, why in the world wouldn't they?

You have technical capabilities to monitor keywords, then profile people, build maps and responses from data easy. I would be shocked if that is not employed already.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Nothing is going to change until there is a collapse. Even then I fear what fills the power void will be worse than what you have now. The reason no one cares is because most Americans are in a comatose state. I've traveled to most US cities and some places in between and it continues to shock me just how stupid the average american is. They're drugged out on corn syrup, anti-depressants, street drugs and see…

That's the thing with the "average American" (or in my case, the "average Dutchman"). For every intelligent, free-thinking mind on HN there's a bunch of morons dragging the average down!

The average is very important in a democracy. They can vote. Or choose not to!

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#95
post #54

I can't say I'm surprised. It's well known the NSA is monitoring internet traffic (read this article in Wired, published in 2006: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/ip-telephony/these-photos-illustra... ) and they have a massive data center in Utah which they use for foreign data collection (read: phone calls). Under the FISA guidelines they can gather foreign data, but have to get a warrant for every US citizen they want to…

It's not about whether citizens are law abiding, it's about whether the the government is using the data in a legitimate way. I have middle-class friends in Istanbul fighting a authoritarian government which is arresting people because of their statements on Twitter and Facebook - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/turkish-police-a... . So the data can easily be abused in a very negative way.

Which is why the government should not have broad access to your records and why "I've got nothing to hide" is a wrong attitude even for "good citizens": the government's definition of good and bad may shift (or become arbitrary).

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#97

I will never understand the inherent distrust America seems to have in their government. Every time a document like this is released, the logic is to assume that the document applies to all Verizon customers (which it does not), then to assume that all telecom companies have been given similar documents, then to assume that the government actually acts on this and randomly spies on people, then to assume that they ar…

> Every time a document like this is released, the logic is to assume that the document applies to all Verizon customers (which it does not), then to assume that all telecom companies have been given similar documents, then to assume that the government actually acts on this and randomly spies on people, then to assume that they are using that data for malicious purposes, and suddenly the government is evil.

The thing about that is that the government did those sorts of things in the past. When those became public, measures were put into place to check those powers. Some people feel that since 9/11/2001, many of those checks have been continually eroded.

More specifically:

> the logic is to assume that the document applies to all Verizon customers

Given the breadth of this order, it appears that there's no particular thing being investigated. It's just "fishing", ostensibly for national security purposes.

> then to assume that all telecom companies have been given similar documents

Once the government is asking "everything" from a particular company, using national security (as opposed to particularized criminal investigation) as the reason, what reason is there to assume they haven't ordered everyone else to do the same. Don't forget this is a secret order, the subject of which (a Verizon subsidiary) is legally barred from discussing with anyone. The document making the news here was leaked, and the leaker has committed a felony by doing so.

> ... then to assume that they are using that data for malicious purposes

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that they're doing anything malicious ... yet. But history as shown that this particular slippery slope isn't always a fallacy.

> Perhaps the country with the most powerful government in the world should have a little trust in it now and then?

One can, conversely, argue that the citizens of that country have a moral obligation to the rest of the world to keep their government's power in check precisely because it's so powerful.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#98

Dutch person here with a little insight what's to come for you guys. Some information about our tiny little country (in Wester Europe, very pro-US) with just 17 million people. Our government listens in on more calls every year than in the whole of the US combined. All our telecommunications providers are forced to have the capability to intercept all traffic (phone and internet). Encrypted data must be stored for an…

Weird thing is, nobody seems to care. I care, it's one of the reasons I will keep voting for the pirate party.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute easiest thing? Outrage + phone calls / letters. It would take a mere 1% of the US population to give a shit, and it would light D.C. up like a Christmas tree. Bury their phones and inboxes in just a few hundred thousand calls and emails per day and every member of Congress would instantly stand to attention and respond positive. It's such a trivial % of the overall population as to be disgusting that it…

Indeed. Nothing is going to change until there is a collapse. Even then I fear what fills the power void will be worse than what you have now. The reason no one cares is because most Americans are in a comatose state. I've traveled to most US cities and some places in between and it continues to shock me just how stupid the average american is. They're drugged out on corn syrup, anti-depressants, street drugs and see…

Comatose is a good description. It's worth noting that those things you list are masks. Americans over-eat, abuse prescription drugs, etc. to hide from, effectively, the last 40 years (and what it has led to). The US standard of living has fallen massively since 1970. In the late 1960s our minimum wage was the equivalent of nearly $50,000 in today's dollars.

But you're wrong, the average American isn't stupid. You clearly haven't spent enough time with 'average' people. I know a lot of people that fall into the average camp in most respects, they're absolutely not stupid. Being drugged out on anti-depressants doesn't make someone stupid. Making poor choices also does not make someone stupid. In fact, you betray an embarrassing ignorance in saying so.

The average American is responsible for one the most productive economies in history (while simultaneously being the largest in history). Said average American manages to live in the most diverse large nation in history, while not constantly murdering each other in the streets by the millions. It's quite a feat that is likely to never be repeated again.

What you said isn't racist. American isn't a race.

I can't fathom however, the arrogance it takes to call hundreds of millions of people stupid. What does that make the other 5.5 billion people with combinations of little to no formal education, running water, indoor plumbing, that are frequently barely literate etc etc etc? That qualifies a billion people in China as being, what exactly, retarded? It's impossible, and ignorant, to label individuals that way.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#100
post #6

America sucks more every day. This really is a pathetic joke -- warrantless, covert surveillance of EVERY call made in the country. I predict the level of outrage won't match the scale of this crime, though.

Americans won't so much as lift their head away from Candycrush to bat an eyelash about it. If there were enough give-a-shit left in America, I don't think things would have gotten so bad to begin with. It's a broken, battered, unemployed, bankrupt, bitter nation being drown by a behemoth $6.3 trillion government system that nothing could possibly contain or restrain. The NSA has a budget the size of the economy of h…

Thats the real issue. People are really apathetic to the situation. Frequent response when brought up is that they have nothing to hide and it only makes them safer. But its not just the government's fault, we have news media driven by ad dollars. Fear drives viewership up and is good for business. If these programs weren't popular, our politicians wouldn't get elected. In our times, if your "soft" on terror, its like automatic disqualification in terms of getting elected.
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