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Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

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Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#91

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

Yes. Most of us here are privacy advocates, and I think society needs our voice. However, we're only one side of the coin. Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible. There are many kinds of dystopias. Big Brother is one. Rule by…

I don't think many rational people would be against this type of surveillance. It's all about transparency and ensuring that those who use this great power are doing so for the right reasons.

Every time a wiretap is executed, there should be some sort of public notice. It should be automatic and only suppressed if the investigation is ongoing and only with a judges approval.

Would that make everyone happy? Obviously there are tons of edge-cases, but those would have to be ironed out as they are revealed, just like anything else.

We have major issues to overcome with keeping those in power honest and free of corruption, but like you said, it's hard.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#92

I vote a little dumb, a little evil (you know, the banality kind) and pretty incompetent. Anecdotal, but the FBI's first web site was hosted by a NASA machine. I think the FBI was traditionally an IBM shop, and mainframes and the web didn't work well together at first. In more verifiable evidence of incompetence, there's the Virtual Case File epic fail ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08...…

This has happened on a vastly smaller scale at a few places I have worked. Another flaw seems to be that none technical people ask for something to appear in the new system when they have no idea. The system is built, exactly as requested, and it sucks. Having a competent software engineer on staff who understands the field is vastly more handy than a fat wad of cash paid to outsource. I'm sure there is a good middle road, but companies I have worked for haven't found it.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#93
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Being an FBI agent is a very honorable and well-respected profession" Unless you are doing this: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011/01/secret_government... It is not as though this is some kind of new, unprecedented behavior either: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/31/mlk.fbi.conspiracy/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover So let's say a young man is thinking about joining the FBI; he wants to do good fo…

So all the good guys who could disinfect the system from within should just turn down the chance and ensure only bad guys get into the position of power and authority?

It's not that "bad people" are the ones drawn to become cops and prison guards, but the inverse: working as a cop or a prison guard changes you to behave a certain way.

The "Stanford Prison Experiment" is a good example of this phenomenon: http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/career-advice/

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#94
post #6

Are there any video chat clients with end-to-end encryption? I was trying to do this by piping the output of my webcam to openssl and then to netcat, which sends the packets to a publicly addressable server (Amazon instance) that relays the encrypted packets to another computer behind a firewall, that decrypts the video stream and plays it in MPlayer. It works, but the latency is about 10 seconds. To reduce the laten…

I had end-to-end encrypted video chat bodged together using libvlc and SRTP streams at one point, but it was incredibly user-unfriendly and getting latency down below 1 second was easier said than done. VLC really wasn't designed for this kind of application.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#95
I'm one of the hard-headed privacy freaks usually sharpening my pitchfork when there is an outrage against civil liberties. I'm that guy.

I once had a job that involved investigations of criminal activity (not law enforcement or government related, just a company protecting its own users and employees).

In this case, I had identified, with certainty, one individual that was engaging in significant fraud. He appeared to have several accounts, and it was appearing highly likely that he had a few accomplices.

During the investigation, I was fully willing to violate everyone's privacy to find everyone in the fraud network. This included data that was already submitted voluntarily, private communications, as well as embedding tracking objects and invisible flash objects to retrieve IP addresses of users surfing behind proxies (this used to be an effective way to unmask users). I didn't have a second thought about it. Why would I? I didn't care what the legitimate users were doing, wasn't going to stalk them, wasn't going to pay any attention to their personal affairs. But, to weed out this problem effectively, I needed to sweep everything. I'm trustworthy, just doing my job, and I certainly trust myself enough to disregard or ignore information that wasn't pertinent.

After being entrenched in the investigation, I had a fairly exhaustive list of the bad actors. Initially this was just basic hard data, (such as correlating IP addresses), but then there was kind of a "sixth sense" that I also started relying on, where I couldn't articulate the signal, but some behavioral cues just felt like they were related. You know, "gut instinct". So I ended up digging into those accounts, and confirmation bias took over. I did find many more bad actors, but I was thoroughly convinced that a few cases were also related, which ended up being suspended, and it turned out that they were actually unrelated and legitimate. That's when I started to reflect a bit.

I didn't go through with the most blatant of the proposed violations, although at the time I was willing to initially. I now realized how egregious that was, and noticed how easily I fell into that mindset. If asked, I think the words "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" could have naturally rolled off my tongue (though, this certainly would have alerted me to the errors of my thought process).

So I concluded a few things:

- Most of the time, these blatant, sweeping violations, are most likely not malicious and probably do have good intentions. I very much understand what frame of mind most of those people are in. It's not an opaque three letter agency, it's made up of regular individuals with tunnel vision on their legitimate objectives (stopping crime).

- When you look at criminals day in and day out, and are on a mission, everybody starts to look like a criminal.

- The "working backwards" approach - finding signatures of bad activity, and applying it to other data, then "confirming" the new matches, is a well-understood statistical fallacy, aptly named, the prosecutor's fallacy[1]. If you spot it in court, your defense attorney can try and point it out to the jury - and good luck explaining it to your "peers" who probably play the same lotto numbers because theirs is "due eventually". But let's face it - your life is already ruined by then. You're on all the watch lists, your vehicles are bugged, you've got huge legal bills and no job, and maybe if you're extremely unlucky, you're even in Guantanamo. Everything prior had little or no judicial oversight, no way to defend yourself, and is from a system that is invariably full of investigators who are not self-aware enough to always catch themselves doing this, especially when the cost of missing an actual threat is extremely high.

And for bonus points:

The interface that a coworker created to do some of the data mining (let's call it the "lawful intercept interface") had an SQL injection bug in the logic that parsed login history. It wouldn't have been difficult to discover and exploit without even knowing this interface existed, due to the error a user would see on login if they had certain bad characters in the affected field. I found it roughly a year later and reported it to the CTO in a message from his own account, after using the bug to take his auth cookie out of the DB (we were friends, so I knew he would be a good sport).

tl;dr It's mostly good intentioned individuals with tunnel vision, who are very misguided, and who don't understand the side effects and costs of what they propose.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor%27s_fallacy

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Most of us here are privacy advocates, and I think society needs our voice. However, we're only one side of the coin. Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible. There are many kinds of dystopias. Big Brother is one. Rule by…

"Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible." So somehow, these abductors managed to leave no physical evidence at all and no witnesses? What does communication privacy have to do with that? There was once a time in this country…

So somehow, these abductors managed to leave no physical evidence at all and no witnesses? You are saying that it's impossible to hide your tracks when abducting someone? So, all the successful abductions that occurred were all due to lazy police work?

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#98

I'm one of the hard-headed privacy freaks usually sharpening my pitchfork when there is an outrage against civil liberties. I'm that guy . I once had a job that involved investigations of criminal activity (not law enforcement or government related, just a company protecting its own users and employees). In this case, I had identified, with certainty, one individual that was engaging in significant fraud. He appeared…

Please tell which US citizens are in Guantanamo because they were "extremely unlucky". You make it sound as if the FBI is picking up Soccer Moms for no reason and mysteriously spiriting them away to Guantanamo.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#99

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

So your choice is dumb, then? Meaning they understand only "their mission" and nothing else. I mean, sure, an organization with Mission X can go about that mission in variety of ways. It's like the sci-fi movies about a God-like-AI "solving" society's problems. Stop crime in New York City? Easy, just encase every resident in three inches of plastic? Makes sense "from their point of view". And the fact is that the dea…

Here is an interesting article discussing the relative probabilities of losing your life due to terrorism versus other ways.

http://reason.com/archives/2011/09/06/how-scared-of-terroris...

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#100
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Authority and power are not inherently evil, nor is the desire for authority or power. Would you like the authority and power to prevent women from being raped? Would you like the power to vote to implement laws equalizing 'rights', such as same-sex marriages?

Power may be a necessary evil, but it's still evil. It robs you of empathy, because putting yourself in the shoes of every person affected by your decisions is just too emotionally taxing. And lack of empathy is the root of all evil.

We are perhaps defining power differently, which is why we will disagree.

I see 'power' as 'the ability to realize my will' and I think you're extending it to 'power over other people,' which does imply that, at some point, it will conflict with someone's legitimate (not saying who is to decide what is legitimate) pursuit of well-being.

I think perhaps we also disagree on the definition of 'evil', but I'm not interested in debating this online. This discussion requires beers and scarred wooden furniture. :-)

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