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Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

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Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#91
I've been privileged to have spent a little bit of time overseas, travelling, on exchange, working and living. I've hit most of North America and Western Europe, throughout the Caribbean, bits of Asia and a fair swath of the Middle East.

I agree that everybody should spend time overseas. It very rarely is a mind-warping experience, but over time it changes your perspective in ways that are very hard to communicate. That slow process of taking textbook facts and walking around in them and making them real is something that has to be experienced to grok.

I recall my wife, who grew up in South Korea and immigrated to the U.S., but who had never been to any other country, the first time we visited the mainland of Italy. The gargantuan magnitude of ancient Rome simply overwhelmed her. Growing up in a very old culture, and then living for years in a young one, she had built up a kind of healthy hubris that was simply shattered walking through thousand year old remains of something as mundane as a public bath or a stadium or a public square. Things which modern Korea has plenty of, but to see that somebody else had come up with the idea and built an empire full of these things centuries before her culture had even come up with their own written language was thoroughly humbling.

She initially felt it diminished where she came from, but over time she was able to assimilate the experience and finally appreciated it, not as a diminishment of her identity, but as an expansion of it.

All that being said, I disagree with this article:

1 - Marketplace value due to oversupply of college grads in the U.S. vs. undersupply elsewhere: In many of the countries I've visited, the number of highly educated barristas, taxi drivers and other low-end service workers is simply overwhelming. I've met people with dual Master's equivalents who spend their work day standing in a costume at the entrance to a parking garage at a department store bowing to cars coming in. Trust me, getting college grads into jobs where a college degree is needed is typically not a problem in most countries (think supply and demand, if this were even trivially true, those jobs would pay astronomical salaries, but even in highly developed economies like Japan, they don't). Unless you just happen to have some specific skill set, and happen to be fluent in the local language, chances are this entire reason simply won't hold true.

2 - Quality of life: True in some still developing, but otherwise nice countries, absolutely false in the developed areas. Moscow, while still so-so, can easily cost more than NYC to live in; 12 years ago you could live in Seoul for about 1/3rd of life in an urban part of the U.S., today it's about the same, a nice meal in Bangkok might cost you more than in U.S.! Caracas now ranks in the top 10 most expensive cities anywhere, likewise Singapore. Fancy paying $8 for a beer, or $20 for a movie ticket? Welcome to Kinshasa and Port Moresby respectively.

Other modern conveniences might similarly cost much more, how about paying twice the U.S. price for an iPad with no app store support for your country. How about Singapore's insane car ownership tax, how about paying $40,000 for a Honda Civic? And oh yeah, gas will cost you. Let's move to Seoul where you have to put a deposit down on an apartment so large you can't even buy the car in the first place.

Let's not forget lax food safety standards, corrupt police, unbelievable pollution...yes I'd like to live in Beijing where every day outside is like smoking a pack of cigarettes.

Before you know it, the thin veneer of pseudo-quality of life familiarness goes away astonishingly quickly when you're squatting over a hole in dirty train station because the camel foot you ate wasn't cooked enough.

3 - The Jobs aren't coming back. Nonsense, it's a pendulum for some jobs and doesn't matter for others. Do you think all the high-end finance jobs are heading for Urumqi? Or that we're suddenly going to start outsourcing local auto-accident lawyers to Dehradun? If anything, the U.S. is shifting lots of outsource jobs back into the states after realizing that outsourcing development, even at cheapo labor rates, often costs more. If the number of Indians moving into my part of the U.S. for high-end work is any kind of thermometer, the jobs are definitely coming back. A commuter bus I take every once in a while completely defies this logic with a majority of the riders educated and Indian!

As China's standard of living is increasing we're seeing the obvious effects, it's not necessarily going to be cheaper to build stuff in China forever going forward. And obviously, moving to an area like that defies #1 and #2 above due to lousy pay and long hours in a job where you can assemble an insignificant part of a device that'll be bought and used thousands of miles from you.

4 - Yeah, broaden your horizons! I don't disagree, but think of it this way, would a New Yorker, struggling in the tough competitive environment of NYC suddenly move to rural Arkansas because he might get a job more easily? No! Why move to another's country's version of the same? I've often been surprised at the places I'd love to move to (and even at the places I wouldn't). But I've got to get real, no matter how cheap the table wine is in Florence, moving there is not going to give me any kind of jobs benefit whatsoever.

Take an ESL teaching job for a year in another country for the exposure? Cool! But don't think it'll substantially distinguish you in the market or give you any other benefit other than a unique life experience.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#92
I'm an American who's lived in five countries and currently lives in Paris, France with my French wife and our French-American daughter (and if you're curious, I have a blog about how you can move abroad, too: http://www.overseas-exile.com/p/start-here.html). I note that the author says their aren't enough jobs in the US or Europe and I've got an issue with that.

Yes, Europe is also struggling with the world economic issues and part of this is the fiscal/monetary dichotomy of the Euro that they've not worked out, and clinging to austerity to save face (and because it sounds reasonable when the overspending straw man argument is pulled out). However, most of Europe (I tentatively exlude the UK) doesn't have the deep structural problems that the US has.

* The US has dropped from 1st to 12th place, internationally, in the number of people under 34 who've graduated from college (http://completionagenda.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files...)

* The US murder rate, while at it's lowest since 1995, is four to five times higher than any Western EU country (http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/...)

* The US the highest number of people in prison, per capita, than any other country on the planet (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris...)

* The US has gone from one of the developed world's lowest infant mortality rates to one of the highest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/infant-...)

* US education levels are falling (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9Li...)

And I haven't even talked about health care or income inequality or the chipping away at the petrodollar, potentially ending the dollar's status as the default world reserve currency.

The US has deep, deep structural problems and these are long-term problems. Europe has some issues, too, but I don't believe the traditional US advantages of entrepreneurship and limited regulatory environment are enough to offset the EU problems.

The 21st century belongs to Europe and China unless the US stops its political crap, rolls up its sleeves and gets back to being the America we thought it was. There's still a huge potential in the US and it's a great place that I miss in many ways, but it's no longer the land of opportunity (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/why-us-eco...).

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fry frozen vegetables in a wok with butter or oil and some spices it is delicious, healthy and very, very cheap. Adding beans or mincemeat for protein still leaves it at very cheap. I can't speak to the education system or public transport system in the States but frozen vegetables are surely available in most convenience stores, yeah?

Not really. Also, frozen vegetables aren't very healthy for you; nutrients are lost in the freezing process. They work well enough for starchy veggies, but these are also the ones that make you fat.

Oh well, I hate driving enough that most of the US is permanently off limits. Freezing does destroy some nutrients but generally a lot less than aging does. Picked from your garden beats frozen but frozen generally beats store bought fresh vegetables. Point on the limited selection but getting fat on a vegetarian diet is not easy unless you eat a crapton of stuff starchier than what you get in frozen veg. Potatoes, rice, pasta.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#94
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. If the successors should reap the benefits, then should they also pay for the sins? E.g., continued restitution for slavery (which, while abolished has left deep racial scars in society) and for the genocide and forced displacement of the indigenous pop…

The world would be better off exactly how, if we all shared New Delhi's standard of living?

I think he meant that in a purely normative sense, in terms of Westerners having the birthright to a good life while being absolved of the atrocities committed by their ancestors so that the high living standards enjoyed nowadays in the West could be achieved.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#95
post #86
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very lower end? 97% of Indian townships lack water treatment. Only 30% of Indians live in major metro areas.

It's reasonable to assume that in the context of our discussion, the hypothetical young America would probably choose to locate himself in a metro, urban area where there's ample supply of good water. But, I agree with you India probably isn't the best possible choice here (but still, as others have pointed out, if you have America money (say, 80k), you'll be living there like a king). There's still a lot of other co…

I've heard that Thailand is a very pleasant (and cheap) place to live.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#96
post #2

Other than teaching English abroad, how else can recent grads find work abroad? The article really drops the ball on that one and the meager links provided are useless. I spent nearly two years abroad in undergrad interning abroad, but even then, finding a relevant (not teaching English) full time job in Asia or Europe when you're in North America is extremely hard.

I found a good extremely appropriate post doc in Switzerland, which was completely serendipitous. After I was done in Switzerland, I emailed some manager at Microsoft China out of the blue, and have been in Beijing ever since. If you have specialized skills, you should be able to find demand for them anywhere. You probably can't start a career here with nothing special in your resume, but you can work for a big corp…

How do you feel about destroying your lungs by living in Beijing? A friend of mine was so happy to leave after just half a year there.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found a good extremely appropriate post doc in Switzerland, which was completely serendipitous. After I was done in Switzerland, I emailed some manager at Microsoft China out of the blue, and have been in Beijing ever since. If you have specialized skills, you should be able to find demand for them anywhere. You probably can't start a career here with nothing special in your resume, but you can work for a big corp…

How do you feel about destroying your lungs by living in Beijing? A friend of mine was so happy to leave after just half a year there.

Winters suck. All the other seasons are bearable.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#98
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...

How old are those numbers? Lets take one listing for an Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre: Houston, TX is listed as $2,050.00 while Bangalore is $ 559.02. If you check out a property listing site: " rel="nofollow">http://www.magicbricks.com/propertyDetails/3-BHK-3000-Sq-ft-... , it says INR.60,000 which works out to approximately $1153.84 (around 52 rupees to a dollar). Obviously, numbeo.com has got the most impo…

I checked for China, they seem to be pretty accurate for here at least. I have no idea about India.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Also, frozen vegetables aren't very healthy for you; nutrients are lost in the freezing process. They work well enough for starchy veggies, but these are also the ones that make you fat.

Oh well, I hate driving enough that most of the US is permanently off limits. Freezing does destroy some nutrients but generally a lot less than aging does. Picked from your garden beats frozen but frozen generally beats store bought fresh vegetables. Point on the limited selection but getting fat on a vegetarian diet is not easy unless you eat a crapton of stuff starchier than what you get in frozen veg. Potatoes, r…

It depends where you buy and what you buy. The poor in developing countries, ironically, get lots of vegetables and can be pretty fit (compared to ours at least). People don't really get fat because they eat too much meat (they can, just not common); its more the sugary and starchy processed foods that do it...and those sell like crack in the developed world.

Of course, one could always hit the gym...if they have enough money (or just move to California and ride a bike everywhere...if they have enough money).

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#100
In my humble opinion everyone should live at least for a year outside of their own country. It makes people more open, and better. People who always been living in one country tend to be more stubborn, and trying to hold to their beliefs as if it's death or life question.
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