Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#91

Post by wfunction » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 9:51 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #31

codemac wrote: post #6

The goals of this post are noble, and I almost agree with the conclusion. How the post gets there seems to be based out of a very negative conflation. How is the lack of women in the tech industry, and the offensive notion that women fair poorly in STEM subjects for no other reason than they're women uttered in the same breath? They shouldn't be for the very same reasons as this post extolls. > Being told that female…

>>Anyone who believes that women inherently do worse in STEM subjects needs to be called out, in the most negative of terms. No one should say it, period. I don't think the point is that they inherently do worse, but rather that, currently and on average, they do worse.

Exactly. I don't get why whenever someone talks about correlation, people suddenly assume he is claiming causation and start beating him to death.

Correlation is correlation: whether or not there is a causal relationship doesn't change the correlation.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#92

Post by vacri » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

adamnemecek wrote: post #89

vacri wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching and nursing are both fields where you need a degree to start participating. And if you look at the discussions in those fields, there's certainly strong concern about lack of males in teaching and mild concern about lack of males in nursing. Tech doesn't require a degree - it's a field anyone with a free evening can pick up. It also bears a significantly broader scope than nursing or teaching.

> Teaching and nursing are both fields where you need a degree to start participating. How is that relevant?

The pool of participants is much narrower in scope - people that have specifically spent years training to be that profession. Not people who started out doing it as a hobby or a quiet thing on the side.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#93

Post by lutusp » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 3:20 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #69

lutusp wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think the OP meant to achieve this goal with law. Read the quote: "The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually _are_ in tech to that of the people who _want_ to be in tech." How would that be achieved without a law? If a law weren't required, it would already have happened, since, logically and without obstacles, those who want to be in tech would be…

> How would that be achieved without a law? By changing people's attitudes. > The goal is really to remove obstacles that unfairly exclude some people from the field. I don't think that will happen all by itself. If if could, it would. While legally provable gender discrimination is an issue, I think the bigger issue is changing people's attitudes. I agree that can't happen all by itself, but I do think it can happen…

>> How would that be achieved without a law?

> By changing people's attitudes.

Here's the reason a law would be required to get every woman into tech who wants to be in tech. There will always be people -- men and women -- who want to be in tech, but who won't get into tech simply because they're unqualified to be there.

Therefore, for any particular exclusion, someone would have to decide whether the exclusion arose from a person being unqualified for technical work, or it being a case of unfair discrimination. In other words, for someone who isn't qualified, just changing attitudes wouldn't achieve the stated goal, to wit: every woman who wants to be in tech, getting into tech.

The bottom line is that many people -- men and women -- would jump at the chance to be in tech, but aren't qualified to be there.

Therefore the only way to achieve the stated goal would be to have a law that forced employers to overlook everything except that a person wants to be in tech.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#94

Post by lutusp » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 3:20 PM UTC

wfunction wrote: post #90

toasterlovin wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the OP meant to achieve this goal with law.

Yes, I most certainly didn't.

Here's the reason a law would be required to get every woman into tech who wants to be in tech. There will always be people -- men and women -- who want to be in tech, but who won't get into tech simply because they're unqualified to be there.

Therefore, for any particular exclusion, someone would have to decide whether the exclusion arose from a person being unqualified for technical work, or it being a case of unfair discrimination. In other words, for someone who isn't qualified, just changing attitudes wouldn't achieve the stated goal, to wit: every woman who wants to be in tech, getting into tech.

The bottom line is that many people -- men and women -- would jump at the chance to be in tech, but aren't qualified to be there.

Therefore the only way to achieve the stated goal would be to have a law that forced employers to overlook everything except that a person wants to be in tech.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#95

Post by jscheel » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

shardling wrote: post #74

jscheel wrote: post #39

After a blow-up in my town a few months ago, I tried to encourage a few notable female tech proponents that negativity was not the way to win the fight. I was publicly lambasted, called denigrating names, had false information spread as far as cities 3000 miles away, and even had a meme made about me (containing incorrect info, imagine that). Negativity breeds nothing but negativity. I often fall into the trap myself…

Sorry, but I can't help but remember encountering people who told stories much like yours, only to find on closer examination that they were incredibly, deeply in the wrong. Since you don't go into any actual details about what set the situation off, it makes it really hard for me to take your anecdote too seriously.

Likewise.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#96

Post by wfunction » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 4:34 PM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #94

wfunction wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I most certainly didn't.

Here's the reason a law would be required to get every woman into tech who wants to be in tech. There will always be people -- men and women -- who want to be in tech, but who won't get into tech simply because they're unqualified to be there. Therefore, for any particular exclusion, someone would have to decide whether the exclusion arose from a person being unqualified for technical work, or it being a case of unfa…

I thought being qualified was rather obvious, the fact that I didn't mention it doesn't mean I thought we should ignore whether or not people are qualified.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#97

Post by lutusp » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 4:43 PM UTC

wfunction wrote: post #96

lutusp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the reason a law would be required to get every woman into tech who wants to be in tech. There will always be people -- men and women -- who want to be in tech, but who won't get into tech simply because they're unqualified to be there. Therefore, for any particular exclusion, someone would have to decide whether the exclusion arose from a person being unqualified for technical work, or it being a case of unfa…

I thought being qualified was rather obvious, the fact that I didn't mention it doesn't mean I thought we should ignore whether or not people are qualified.

> I thought being qualified was rather obvious ...

People can only reply to what you say, not what you might have meant or believed to be self-evident. Here's what you said:

"The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually are in tech to that of the people who want to be in tech."

Seems pretty clear to me. The above would require a law, a compelling factor. Attitude adjustments wouldn't be enough.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#98

Post by wfunction » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #97

wfunction wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought being qualified was rather obvious, the fact that I didn't mention it doesn't mean I thought we should ignore whether or not people are qualified.

> I thought being qualified was rather obvious ... People can only reply to what you say, not what you might have meant or believed to be self-evident. Here's what you said: "The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually are in tech to that of the people who want to be in tech." Seems pretty clear to me. The above would require a law, a compelling factor. Attitu…

> People can only reply to what you say, not what you might have meant or believed to be self-evident.

Well, it seems like at least some people understood what I meant:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5599351

So maybe you just took it too literally at face value?

I wasn't writing a computer program, I was writing English, so let's try to understand what I was saying instead of attempting to interpret it like a computer.

My entire point was that "equal" isn't necessarily the correct ratio, so if you got that point you got my entire point; if not then you missed it.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#99

Post by Kudzu_Bob » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 6:12 PM UTC

shardling wrote: post #74

jscheel wrote: post #39

After a blow-up in my town a few months ago, I tried to encourage a few notable female tech proponents that negativity was not the way to win the fight. I was publicly lambasted, called denigrating names, had false information spread as far as cities 3000 miles away, and even had a meme made about me (containing incorrect info, imagine that). Negativity breeds nothing but negativity. I often fall into the trap myself…

Sorry, but I can't help but remember encountering people who told stories much like yours, only to find on closer examination that they were incredibly, deeply in the wrong. Since you don't go into any actual details about what set the situation off, it makes it really hard for me to take your anecdote too seriously.

Sorry, but I can't help but remember encountering people who made comments much like yours, only to find on closer examination that they were incredibly, deeply in the wrong.

Since you don't go into any actual details about the basis of your comment, it makes it really hard for me to take your remembrances too seriously.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#100

Post by shardling » Wed, Apr 24, 2013, 6:46 PM UTC

Kudzu_Bob wrote: post #99

shardling wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I can't help but remember encountering people who told stories much like yours, only to find on closer examination that they were incredibly, deeply in the wrong. Since you don't go into any actual details about what set the situation off, it makes it really hard for me to take your anecdote too seriously.

Sorry, but I can't help but remember encountering people who made comments much like yours, only to find on closer examination that they were incredibly, deeply in the wrong. Since you don't go into any actual details about the basis of your comment, it makes it really hard for me to take your remembrances too seriously.

What a boring, round about way to say something.