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I'm tired

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Re: I'm tired

#91

Post by kunai »

I couldn't read this.

When you are intellectually advanced to the point where sexist jokes simply make you want to rip out the throat of the party saying them, you begin to realize that disrespect for women is not only illogical but very perverse. Telling someone they have "good tits" is not funny or even sexy to the party that it is said to.

It's a fucking disgrace to humanity. Not only is it objectifying, but it's insulting, rude, and so incredibly improper.

I thought we had reached the point where our minds found others attractive based upon intelligence, and not on physical appearance. I thought we had reached the point where sexism had all but disappeared.

Of course, as I always am, I was wrong.

This is quite frankly getting ridiculous. I don't tell women anything about their physical appearance, unless I've known them for a long time; which is when an "You're a very beautiful person" may be appropriate.

I know many others that go by the same maxim. It's a shame some men haven't matured enough to behave.

Re: I'm tired

#92

Post by richforrester »

famousactress wrote: post #29
richforrester wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a bit of nuance, instead of "fuck off", you could try something like "I disagree, but I'm pretty tired of that conversation", and change the topic. Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt. The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to mind.

So.. You're probably right. Here's my (quite possibly unreasonable) defense of the language I suggested... It grinds conversations to a halt. "I disagree, but.." doesn't register shock. That's not the kind of language people use when they witness horror, or abuse. It's not emotional. If anything, if I was at the table and that was your reaction I'd probably take it to mean that your primary takeaway is to be annoyed…

"Fuck you registers shock, and anger."

Correct, but I assumed "I'm tired of losing friends over this" could refer to either side in the argument. If you don't want to hurt anyone, brush off silly comments and move on.

If you want to make a point, by all means.

ps.: "fuck off" might also trigger more discussion, which he's trying to avoid. It's easier to say "my opinion is different" than "your opinion is stupid".

Re: I'm tired

#93

Post by mlent »

noobface wrote: post #74

You know what I'm tired of: condescension. The guy who was making sexist statements is ignorant, not a "fucking loser." How do you make these situations positive for everyone? Empathy. Empathy for all sides. Everyone exposed to this kind of social ignorance is a victim if you dig deep enough. In the tech world we are quick to call users idiots, each other inept, ideas retarded... I ask for empathy. Empathy for this o…

I don't think the person in this particular story is being ignorant -- he's being willfully sexist. This situation is not a misunderstanding. And we don't know why he thinks the women in the post can't get by on her own merits.

We do know that after hearing what other people had to say, he insisted on his sexist remark. He had a chance to reflect on it, and exhibited no remorse or apprehension. That kind of behavior doesn't deserve empathy, it deserves harsher correction and condemnation by his peers. Letting a situation like that slide only says, "If you insist enough, people actually shut up because they're agreeing with you or don't think it matters enough to merit dissent." Silence is just as bad as agreement in a case like this.

This guy doesn't need a kindergarten-level explanation of why it's not nice to tell a lady she got where she is "because of her tits" -- he needs someone to tell him to cut the crap because it won't be tolerated.

Re: I'm tired

#94

Post by kunai »

famousactress wrote: post #2

I hate that feeling.. the knowledge that engaging in the discussion is going to be exhausting and the chance of making traction is slim, and the feeling that inaction is the only reasonable alternative. Allow me to suggest another alternative to actual discussion in situations like this: Tell the person to fuck off. I'm serious. It registers disagreement, and to any rational person the lack of interest in attempting…

Tell the person to fuck off.

Okay, I may get many downvotes here, but this doesn't seem like the solution to the problem. Rudeness and insults are rudeness and insults. Cursing doesn't help the matter.

Inaction is not the solution either, but I'm sure there's a more mature way to handle things. Asking the party to leave politely is better than keeping your mouth shut, and it also seems better than cursing them out.

Of course, if they refuse to behave, then tell them the magic words.

Fuck off.

Re: I'm tired

#95

Post by martinced »

kunai wrote: post #91

I couldn't read this. When you are intellectually advanced to the point where sexist jokes simply make you want to rip out the throat of the party saying them, you begin to realize that disrespect for women is not only illogical but very perverse. Telling someone they have "good tits" is not funny or even sexy to the party that it is said to. It's a fucking disgrace to humanity. Not only is it objectifying, but it's…

"When you are intellectually advanced to the point where sexist jokes simply make you want to rip out the throat of the party saying them"

If you're intellectually advanced you do not want to rip people's throat off. That's what 80 IQ points drunk rednecked hillbillies do when they're upset.

When you're intellectually advanced you own little sexist people using words until they want to rip your throat off because they you made them realize how miserable they were for behaving that way.

Re: I'm tired

#96

Post by [deleted] »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #89
danso wrote: post #43

This was painful to read. It's hard to get into the usual is-there-sexism-in-tech-or-not debate because this is so beyond the pale-dysfunctional. First, that anyone could say such a thing in polite company. Second, that the rest of the table did not demand the offending person to leave. Seriously, how is anyone, espicially the targeted woman, expected to enjoy their dinner and have a non-awkward conversation after th…

> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a tem…

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired

#97

Post by GhotiFish »

bcoates wrote: post #87
GhotiFish wrote: post #77

There is a website http://notalwaysright.com/ It's an aggregation of stories from people working in the service industry who have horror stories to tell from the customers they serviced. If you read through a few stories you might pick up on a anomaly that seems to pervade. Particularly any story from the "Awesome Customers" category. For some stories we see normal, self-righteous, mildly ignorant, comical behavior,…

Except for the part where the OP says he didn't confront the guy but wishes he did.

That's the thing, if things had happened as the OP said, the reaction from any of the human beings I know would of being proportionately extreme. Something is just a bit surreal here.

Re: I'm tired

#98

Post by flogic »

lightup88 wrote: post #51
flogic wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I would argue that "fuck off" is the better response. "I disagree" implies that there's grounds for legitimate discussion when the initial remark is so far out of line there really isn't.

While I agree wholeheartedly, remember that some of the problem is the current dichotomy. The sexist ass on one hand and the too non-confrontational to say anything on the other. I'd posit that it's more useful to figure out a realistic way to get that second group to speak out--even if it's not a hearty "fuck off".

I'm a non-confrontational person myself actually. It took me over 35 years to learn being that direct is actually less stressful in certain circumstances. Quite arguably, I'm still learning it. We get it in our heads that we owe the asshole an explanation. That's a trap. The explanation becomes it's own source of stress. Odds are strong, the asshole knows they're being an asshole. No, explanation is required.

Re: I'm tired

#100

Post by bazzargh »

zalew wrote: post #71
bazzargh wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She did speak up. See the comments (you can't at the moment because the traffic's taken the site down). And the comments have a guy who is behaving exactly like that. To paraphrase - she tried to make the witty comeback but was talked over, and part of the point is this isn't isolated, she gets rape threats every game release; can you imagine how wearing that is? She suggests that others also need to speak up - a qui…

> she gets rape threats every game release seriously, the internet is a big rape threat. are there any smart people that treat random anon trolling seriously? (except opportunists and journalists that by occasion use such crap as a 'proof' of whatever)

Whether you treat it seriously (as in, call the police) depends on the level of implied threat. But are you really just saying ignore it? Think about the spam you get. It's a little annoying. Now think if all of that was threats directed at you.

It's not just about whether you take them all seriously, it's whether this constant drumbeat of abuse gets to you. Would you still love your dream job after a year of that? Would you just want the relief of bowing out of any kind of public life?

Women deserve better. Telling them to toughen up doesn't help, it's blaming the victim. Try speaking out instead.

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