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Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#91

Post by bayesianhorse »

overcyn wrote: post #89
ZoFreX wrote: post #79

Note to people that know me IRL: This comment is quite personal. Feel free to read it but please bear that in mind. I've really been trying to bite my tongue in the last 2 months but the number of articles about depression on HN is overwhelming and it's starting to bug me. A lot. And by "bug" I mean "upset, anger, and insult". Here's some ground rules for not being insulting. It is possible to break these rules and n…

> Do not assume there is a correlation between depression and suicide. The connection is actually very weak, far weaker than most people assume. Do you have a source for this? I've been searching for a bit, but can't find anything that indicates depression is very weakly related to suicide.

I believe the correlation is there, but it can be very misleading. The presupposition in the article is that a prospective start-up founder knows he has a mental health problem. In that case, his suicide risk is already lower.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#92

Post by benologist »

singular wrote: post #88
benologist wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results don't need to be shared necessarily, it could be as simple as mandatory evaluation + unbeknownst to the investor, treatment if that's what is recommended.

You talk about treatment, but you mention that this would form part of due diligence - presumably a treatment recommendation would cause the investors to pull out? Good luck diagnosing depression when the person being questioned knows it's the difference between his company getting investment or not - here's an e.g. form typical of the assessment you get (in the UK) - http://www.sabp.nhs.uk/Documents/D1.3d2.pdf How d…

All the investors need to know is you cooperated, they don't need to know what that means. Maybe that means you went and were fine, maybe that means you went and got recommended for some additional therapy.

Education, stigma etc are massive parts of the problem. Being forced to confront it and forcing an industry to confront it head on sounds good to me. When you wait for a depressed person to realize they need help and decide to take action and actually do it you wait too long.

I have no point of reference for marriage and drug-taking kids. I don't know if well adjusted people can leave their problems at home but depressed people cannot, and I do have some experience with that including seeing it take a life.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#93

Post by twitchhiker »

jacquesm wrote: post #53
twitchhiker wrote: post #27

This is just about the most patronising, idiotic, misguided and damaging piece of bullshit I've ever had the misfortune to read. For some people, yes, a high pressure environment that risks failure will put some in harm's way. But if somebody is prone to suicidal thoughts, it's likely that simply living life will put them at risk. Rejection in love. Loss of income. The death of a family member. There's so much in lif…

Hey Paul, congratulations on coming out and showing there are survivors of exactly that setup. Have any of the people in your accelerator program killed themselves? Would you reconsider your stance if they did or would you stick with it? Are you trying to identify people who may have mental issues from the population of founders of your seed stage companies? And if so do you - help to get them professionally looked a…

"Congratulations on coming out..."

Thanks, but I haven't. I've openly talked about it for years.

"...and showing there are survivors of exactly that setup."

What? I haven't 'survived' anything. I don't do my job in either the accelerator or the startup struggling with the relentless torture of it all.

2% of the population suffers from depression. 2% of the population don't kill themselves. So most are 'survivors' or, to use another word, 'normal'.

"Have any of the people in your accelerator program killed themselves?"

Out of 50 founders so far? No. Out of a wider ecosystem in our city of at least as many again? Not to my knowledge.

"Would you reconsider your stance if they did or would you stick with it?"

What's to reconsider? Would you consider closing a bank because somebody couldn't cope with the crushing monotony of their work and killed themselves? No.

"Are you trying to identify people who may have mental issues from the population of founders of your seed stage companies?"

No. I'm not a qualified doctor.

"And if so do you help to get them professionally looked after?"

If somebody shows symptoms of depression of course I'll talk to them and support them. I'll strongly suggest they talk to their doctor because diagnosis is required to managed depression.

"Do you refuse them entry into the program?"

No. That's stupid. Their depression may have nothing whatsoever to do with startups. Chances are it hasn't because they're still early stage. If I feel they're capable of completing the program in a professional and competent manner, then their mental wellbeing isn't a deal-breaker.

Just so we're clear:

- depression and suicide are not necessarily related, and one rarely leads to the other.

- people get depressed about plenty of issues other than startups. I have a friend, a successful entrepreneur who sets an outstanding example to others; his personal life is often a mess because of his depression. His professional life and his depression don't cross paths, and I'd guess that without doing what he loves in his work, his life would be so much harder.

- that there are people who think like you worries me far, far more than people with depression.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#94

Post by singular »

benologist wrote: post #92
singular wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You talk about treatment, but you mention that this would form part of due diligence - presumably a treatment recommendation would cause the investors to pull out? Good luck diagnosing depression when the person being questioned knows it's the difference between his company getting investment or not - here's an e.g. form typical of the assessment you get (in the UK) - http://www.sabp.nhs.uk/Documents/D1.3d2.pdf How d…

All the investors need to know is you cooperated, they don't need to know what that means. Maybe that means you went and were fine, maybe that means you went and got recommended for some additional therapy. Education, stigma etc are massive parts of the problem. Being forced to confront it and forcing an industry to confront it head on sounds good to me. When you wait for a depressed person to realize they need help…

I'm very sorry to hear that you had to see it take somebody's life, that really is a terrible thing, and my heart goes out to you.

I am a depressive myself so have some experience, and dislike any idea that somebody might avoid employing me/feel leery about my advancing in the workplace because of it (even posting about it here makes me feel uncomfortable because of this stigma.)

Though I applaud the idea that people become more aware of the risks esp. in the computing industry/startups, I think the idea of assessing it being part of due diligence would simply encourage more stigma about it - 'who wants a 'crazy person' in charge of our money?' many will think, sadly.

Anyway, on the subject of depression I have a lot of experience so if you want to talk about that if it'd be of any benefit, feel free to email me (see my profile) :-)

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#95

Post by michaelochurch »

il wrote: post #90
michaelochurch wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two minds about the depression/startup debate. First, I'm going to make a blanket statement. People with depression are, as a group, better people. Sure, there are bad people with depression and good people without it but, in the aggregate, people who have suffered through it tend to be more empathetic and less mean-spirited. You're not likely to kick those who are down if you've been down. If you've had a 3-m…

This has nothing to do with VCs. Building a business-any business-is incredibly hard and stressful. I'm not sure if you've been there, but bootstrapping a business, really building something new and unknown from nothing, is infinitely more stressful than running a funded startup. Raising money at least gives you a little cushion, a little breathing room to experiment and fail and try again. Bootstrapping, the "you do…

You are agreeing with my point, which is that there's no way to form a business that isn't extremely stressful. That's unfortunate, because there are plenty of people out there who have the talent and ability but don't want to take on the pain.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#96

Post by benologist »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #73
benologist wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe pysch-evals should be part of due diligence by investors?

That should be illegal. It probably is, at least in the EU. And it's counterproductive. Imagine Robbin Williams being turned down by every major record label: "Sorry, Mr. Williams, you suffer from bipolar disorder, we can't take the risk."

Why do you assume it would be a negative signal? History is full of counter-examples.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#97

Post by ZoFreX »

twitchhiker wrote: post #27

This is just about the most patronising, idiotic, misguided and damaging piece of bullshit I've ever had the misfortune to read. For some people, yes, a high pressure environment that risks failure will put some in harm's way. But if somebody is prone to suicidal thoughts, it's likely that simply living life will put them at risk. Rejection in love. Loss of income. The death of a family member. There's so much in lif…

Thank you so much for sharing, Paul.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#98

Post by ZoFreX »

jacquesm wrote: post #39
bayesianhorse wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still bias. This is something medical professionals have to be reminded of over and over again: Your perception is not a double-blind study! You have no randomized control group and not enough cases.

There is a fair chance of that. But since this is my blog I will write whatever the hell I please, it's not a double blind study over 20 years and it does not pretend to be. It's a plea. Which may stop the next friend or person that I'm in contact with from taking a right turn for a dead end in some broom closet somewhere. Enough bright lights have been extinguished in this fashion over the last couple of years.

> But since this is my blog I will write whatever the hell I please

Of course. But I hope you would care that what you wrote is upsetting to a lot of people, and that we believe the advice is actually harmful, even though you didn't intend it to be.

If you truly do care about these issues and genuinely want to help people, I would love to chat to you about it. I don't think this is really the place for it, so please email me (@gmail.com) if you want to take up that offer.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#99

Post by porker »

michaelochurch wrote: post #85
derefr wrote: post #2

> For some reason start-ups are a magnet for people that suffer from depression. I posit: it's hard to hold a steady job while suffering from untreated depression. (Or ADD. Or social anxiety. Or any number of other things.) Between your (inevitably short) periods of employment, you tinker. Tinkering leads to projects, projects become startups, and--if you're good at what you do--before you know it, you're under a ton…

Everything in the working world fails people with mental illness, even at low levels that aren't especially problematic under less pressure. There are very few organizations that actually promote based on excellence. Most set up a war of attrition based on shared suffering and the mountain of pointless work generated by bike-shedding executives. People with depression (or anxiety, ADD, panic, etc.) are not intentiona…

michael, I agree with most of what you write, but I'm unsure what you would term a lifestyle business? Life coaching is what I'd term a lifestyle business, and I can't think depressed people would be great at it. Could you give some examples?
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