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A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

blog.rongarret.info

91–100 of 130 posts

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#91
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was very explicit in saying, multiple times, that his assertion was true for any definition of victim. It's easy to show that the victim of credit card fraud is typically the merchant, not the consumer.

I used the term consequences deliberately. The merchant may have losses, but they have no leverage. The option to not take credit cards is not available to most sellers of goods. On a large scale the cost of fraud simply becomes a cost of business that factors into the price the consumer pays. This is why many merchants offer a cash discount. To argue that the cash discount is just to cover credit card processing fee…

You may have used the word deliberately but you used it wholly incorrectly, which is the source of all the confused replies. Not being able to avoid consequences is not the same as there being no consequences.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#92
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so obviously untrue that I'm really curious for further explanation. What are you talking about?

You say it's obviously untrue, so what are the obvious consequences of credit card fraud? I believe that anything you suggest worth addressing costs more than the fraud itself. The only way to eliminate fraud is to show that doing so increases transaction volume. Since there has yet to be a proposed solution that does that, people focus instead on trying to "save money" lost to fraud, which doesn't work because there…

Well, theft is one obvious consequence. If someone steals my stuff with a credit card, I have suffered a loss as a consequence of the offender's fraud. I'm not sure how you can argue around that.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#93
post #22

I've thought about this "problem" and decided there's no problem. You're solving a non-problem if you try to solve credit card fraud. The reason we don't deal with credit card fraud is that there are no consequences for being a victim, for any definition of victim. If the victims had consequences, then there would be demand for action. But there is none. Further, because there are no consequences, the cost to solve c…

If you think there is no victim I think you may not have a very firm grasp of economics. In particular, small negative consequences borne by many economic actors adds up to legitimate negative economic consequences, even if there is a collective action problem in addressing them. In order to make the argument that there is no victim, you will have to describe how this fraud is wealth creating, without appealing to any broken window fallacies. I guarantee this is impossible.

In reality, the costs of fraud are shared widely, and there are definitely victims in aggregate. First, the merchants are clearly victims. In a counterfactual universe that contains no credit card fraud, merchants pay lower fees to accept credit cards, and make more money for selling the same amount of goods at the same prices. Second, consumers are definitely victims. In the same counterfactual universe, consumers pay less for goods by a tiny margin, and thus are able to consume more and achieve higher levels of utility. Additionally, in this counterfactual universe, nobody has to deal with credit card fraud, which is an inconvenience which has both a direct dollar cost, in cases where people aren't satisfied with their legal protection or incur legal costs in exercising their protection, and in non-dollar costs like having to call their bank, stress, broken relationships etc. Note that these are real costs and lower standards of living and utility even if they aren't dollar costs.

From a macro perspective, it's obvious that fraud has a negative impact on the economy. All of the effort that is spent by every fraud researcher, fraud company, credit card company fraud agent etc. is fundamentally unproductive effort which is nonetheless included in GDP. If these people didn't have to deal with credit card fraud, because it simply didn't exist, they could be gainfully employed in other productive fields that work to meet the hedonic goals of other humans.

I just want you to be aware of the tough row you have to hoe if you are really planning on going down this path, and if you ignore the above arguments, well, you aren't making a very compelling case.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#94
I was really expecting a solid article there since he claims he tried to solve it. Specifically --

- What exactly are these barriers the industry has set up?

- What kind of savings be obtained through his solution?

- What exactly is this solution without going into the crypto part (which I assume is what he wants to sell)?

- Any solution involving crypto means at the least both client and server side changes are needed, which means every merchant needs to upgrade. What is he proposing that has a better value proposition inspite of the costs involved?

I am not even questioning his crypto protocol, assuming its good.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#96
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was very explicit in saying, multiple times, that his assertion was true for any definition of victim. It's easy to show that the victim of credit card fraud is typically the merchant, not the consumer.

I used the term consequences deliberately. The merchant may have losses, but they have no leverage. The option to not take credit cards is not available to most sellers of goods. On a large scale the cost of fraud simply becomes a cost of business that factors into the price the consumer pays. This is why many merchants offer a cash discount. To argue that the cash discount is just to cover credit card processing fee…

[deleted]

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#97
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, capability is a fine word for this. I'd say the practical consequences are still exactly the same, regardless of the label. Ugh, no thanks. The system you describe is more like cash. I have to actively dole out the necessary amount, and then receive change that is counted at each transition. I abhor these types of transactions. Not as I imagine it. I think the merchant would be able to set up a transaction, and…

Heck, why not let users create a whitelist of trusted businesses? Best of both worlds.

That would be great.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#98
Planet Money talks about the disincentives for the banks to have better protection about about 26:20 into this podcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/06/16/137181702/the-tues...

Simply, the reason given is that credit card fraud costs them about $3 billion annually. That's not enough to get them to move.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#99
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cut me a little slack, OK? This is just the beginning of a long story.

If it's not ready to be read, why was it posted?

Long stories are not told entirely in the first chapter.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#100

In Canada they have a system where you input a PIN number every time you use a credit card at a POS. I've heard from my Canadian friend who owns a Shoppers Drug Mart, that it has cut down chargebacks to almost 0. Why they haven't implemented this in the US I'm not sure. The only problem is that if they figure out your PIN, it makes it very hard to fight chargebacks from the point of the consumer. But we all know that…

At most gas stations and some grocery stores, I have to enter my billing ZIP code before proceeding. I'm not sure how effective it is.
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