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U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

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Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#91

Post by pcrh »

shin_lao wrote: post #32
_b8r0 wrote: post #23

I have an idea that the differences in work ethic across Europe may be partly to do with climate and partly to do with language. In France, the verb 'work' is travailler . Traditionally this meant literally to toil, a chore, an obligation. In Germany, the word werken means to build, create, do. The German word more aligned with travailler is arbeit. This lack of correlation in the word work I believe may explain the…

Yes, you're most likely wrong. France is a hard working country. It's not where it is today just because there is an Eiffel tower and great bread. I realize that bashing France is always enjoyable but although its going downhill it's still one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world. People have more holidays but work for longer hours. One example of one factory doesn't say much about the country as a…

The letter refers to working for three hours, not an official three-hour day. It's probably hyperbole.

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#92

Post by vehementi »

jacquesm wrote: post #67
ericd wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is productive - a polite refusal would leave the minister with less information about the opinion of business leaders towards French policies. This way, he knows of a few specific issues that the CEO has with the idea of operating in France.

All he succeeded in communicating is that he thinks in stereotypes and is a jerk. Why do you think this letter is now on public display? Workers in France work for three hours, eat for two and talk for another three? Really? Producing in France is only expensive because of the labour costs? Or is there maybe also that pesky environmental controls issue?

Is he lying? He says he visited the factory and observed that they worked as described, and called them on it, and they were indignant. So yes, "really".

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#93

Post by pcrh »

jacquesm wrote: post #72
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you prefer that the guy puts on a fake smile and pretends to not be an ass? I wouldn't.

False Dichotomy. Hello dear French Person, We have taken your offer under consideration and have decided we are not interested. Experience has taught us that we can produce cheaper in Asia which is why we are not going to set up a manufacturing base in Europe. best regards, x No fake smile, not an ass.

You forgot:

Je vous prie de bien vouloir agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de mes honnêtes et respectueuses salutations.

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#94

Post by gojomo »

rayiner wrote: post #78
gojomo wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "three hours a day" is obviously an impressionistic account, but he reports having visited that factory more than once and spoken with its workers. And, as someone who's managed similar factories in other jurisdictions, he'd have some insight about what 'tempo' of production is necessary for profitable operation. So it's not fair to accuse him of imagining this based solely on cultural stereotypes. He has experti…

The third paragraph is talking about that factory, but he's clearly generalizing to French workers. He uses the word "French" three times in four short sentences.

It can be stretched to read that way, but I believe the context makes it clear that he is primarily speaking about those he observed and spoke to in that factory.

For example, the last sentence phrase "I told this to the French union workers to their faces" is clearly referring to specific workers at a specific site, not all French workers (or even French union workers) everywhere.

He does emphasize the descriptor 'French', but that seems both to rub a little salt in the wound of the national official he's responding to, and perhaps to contrast those he's describing with non-French workers at the same factory, or with workers in similar tire factories outside France. It isn't evidence the author has the same judgement of all French workers, even though that expansive interpretation is an easier strawman to knock down.

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#95

Post by jacquesm »

pcrh wrote: post #93
jacquesm wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False Dichotomy. Hello dear French Person, We have taken your offer under consideration and have decided we are not interested. Experience has taught us that we can produce cheaper in Asia which is why we are not going to set up a manufacturing base in Europe. best regards, x No fake smile, not an ass.

You forgot: Je vous prie de bien vouloir agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de mes honnêtes et respectueuses salutations.

There is a note of subtlety there that I find hard to translate but my French interpreter detects a very subtle note of sarcasm in that carefully worded salutation.

When you've been insulted you can insult back by throwing rotten fish or you can insult back by being very explicitly correct and I sense this is some slight variation of that. Maybe someone who is more experienced in French can confirm or deny that.

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#96

Post by jacquesm »

btilly wrote: post #77
rayiner wrote: post #46

What's amusing about the letter is that it shows how even executives buy into cultural stereotypes to justify their activities. The substance of the letter is this: we'd rather buy an Indian or Chinese tire company to get the government subsidies and take advantage of the low cost of labor. The stuff about French workers only working three hours a day is fluff, and on top of that almost certainly exaggerated out of c…

The French show up to work for that long, but what do they accomplish? As http://www.ibtimes.com/us-labor-department-statistics-vindic... points out, the per hour productivity of French workers in manufacturing is only 78% of the per hour productivity of US workers. And going to the statistics linked in that chart, I note that French workers receive 144% of what US workers do per hour. (I looked for both India and Ch…

In many European countries, not just France, American per-hour wages would be considered exploitation. And that does not even begin to look at things like holidays, sick leave, maternity leave, workers compensation and of course health insurance.

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#97

Post by btilly »

jacquesm wrote: post #96
btilly wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French show up to work for that long, but what do they accomplish? As http://www.ibtimes.com/us-labor-department-statistics-vindic... points out, the per hour productivity of French workers in manufacturing is only 78% of the per hour productivity of US workers. And going to the statistics linked in that chart, I note that French workers receive 144% of what US workers do per hour. (I looked for both India and Ch…

In many European countries, not just France, American per-hour wages would be considered exploitation. And that does not even begin to look at things like holidays, sick leave, maternity leave, workers compensation and of course health insurance.

I don't disagree. However from the point of view of the manufacturer, spending more and getting less isn't a good deal. Contrast with the South Korean model where manufacturers spend more and also get more. Where would you prefer to put a factory?

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#98

Post by bps4484 »

jacquesm wrote: post #51
16s wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like people who tell it like they see it. Sure, he could tone it down a bit, but I would prefer he does not. When you guard your words and hold back how you really feel, you are not doing anyone any favors. Saying nice, comforting things to them (while they fail and people lose their jobs) would be a greater injustice than being honest and frank. I bet no one else has ever spoken that directly about the matter. Som…

Sure, but this is not in any way productive. Another thing that bugs me is the hypocritical stance of suing Chinese tire manufacturers and then turning around and manufacturing in China. If you do something like this - it's a pretty drastic departure from good form - there ought to be a reason for it, some kind of upside to balance the obvious downsides.

"Another thing that bugs me is the hypocritical stance of suing Chinese tire manufacturers and then turning around and manufacturing in China."

I could see why you'd viscerally feel that way, but if the tariffs that are being applied in the US aren't also being applied in other countries (Europe, for example) then he is unable to compete with Chinese tires without creating a factory there to get the same subsidies.

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#99

Post by pcrh »

jacquesm wrote: post #95
pcrh wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot: Je vous prie de bien vouloir agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de mes honnêtes et respectueuses salutations.

There is a note of subtlety there that I find hard to translate but my French interpreter detects a very subtle note of sarcasm in that carefully worded salutation. When you've been insulted you can insult back by throwing rotten fish or you can insult back by being very explicitly correct and I sense this is some slight variation of that. Maybe someone who is more experienced in French can confirm or deny that.

Actually, the sarcasm would only be perceived by an Anglophone. That is a fairly standard salutation in French, further, it is one that indicating that the recipient is of higher status than the sender. French salutations are notoriously flowery and with complex rules (which I have probably gotten wrong here, being primarily an Anglophone myself).

Re: U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’

#100

Post by jacquesm »

btilly wrote: post #97
jacquesm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many European countries, not just France, American per-hour wages would be considered exploitation. And that does not even begin to look at things like holidays, sick leave, maternity leave, workers compensation and of course health insurance.

I don't disagree. However from the point of view of the manufacturer, spending more and getting less isn't a good deal. Contrast with the South Korean model where manufacturers spend more and also get more. Where would you prefer to put a factory?

I'm a big fan of putting factories close to the region where the goods are consumed. In the long run that would seem to make the most sense. Of course, short term economical factors and longer term trends are not always in harmony. As long as CEOs are judged by quarterly earnings reports this will likely remain.
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