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A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

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Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#91

I have a suspicion that there's a cognitive bias at play here, whereby men unconsciously overrate the competence of attractive women and underrate the competence of unattractive women. While I have no evidence to back it up, it does a better job of passing the sniff test than the implicit assertion that men are consciously hiring unqualified women simply because they're attractive.

>a cognitive bias at play here, whereby men unconsciously overrate the competence of attractive women [...] //

Only men?

I don't consider it likely but it seems mathematically possible that men are entirely even handed on the appearance of women but that women are highly partial to more attractive women. That would mean that as more women entered higher echelons of companies there would be more bias towards hiring attractive women [for top positions]. If the effect was greater amongst more attractive women - like stereotypical high school girl groups of Hollywood movies - then the effect would quickly magnify until only the most attractive women were allowed, by other women, to attain top positions.

I'm not at all saying this is the case but just questioning whether there's a basis in science for your apparently pinning the apparent bias on men [alone].

It also strikes me that perhaps the person writing the story is attracted to power. That would make those women appear more attractive than they otherwise might. A further possibility is that after attaining positions with good wages they then were able to acquire the ability to stay (or become) more attractive - basically flipping the cause and effect.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#92
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a flaw in your methodology. You are comparing a group of preselected smart girls with a group of preselected pretty girls. Neither is a representative sample of the population.

3 Questions then: A) Do you disagree with my position on effort? B) How else is one going to encounter this phenomenon in real life? C) How should I correctly test the hypothesis?

Re C: you could stand in a place that attracts what you consider to be an unbiased clientèle, ask women if they'll take a test, give them an IQ test (or establish highest level of education or similar). Score them on looks somehow. Compare results and test for correlation.

Or you could take a group with similar intelligence (eg a university class group) and have them rated for looks, compare the result curves with the expected results in general population and look for skew or spread variations.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>One is left to speculate as to why There is no need for speculation, since we already know the answer: fast-food is both affordable and calorie-dense, which is why lower-income people consume it and become overweight. Ever noticed how many fast-food restaurants there are in lower-income neighborhoods?

> since we already know the answer: fast-food is both affordable and calorie-dense // Fast-food is not affordable in the UK. It's substantially more costly than preparing your own food. There is no way that we could afford to eat fast-food more than a couple of nights per week; then we'd have to cut the quality of food on other nights considerably. McDonalds for one adult costs about what we spend on a meal for 4 coo…

I thought it was because the UK rains money on people, free housing and the like.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>One is left to speculate as to why There is no need for speculation, since we already know the answer: fast-food is both affordable and calorie-dense, which is why lower-income people consume it and become overweight. Ever noticed how many fast-food restaurants there are in lower-income neighborhoods?

> since we already know the answer: fast-food is both affordable and calorie-dense // Fast-food is not affordable in the UK. It's substantially more costly than preparing your own food. There is no way that we could afford to eat fast-food more than a couple of nights per week; then we'd have to cut the quality of food on other nights considerably. McDonalds for one adult costs about what we spend on a meal for 4 coo…

Are you sure, on a calorie basis? McDonald's is far more calorie dense than anything a sane human could make at home.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#95
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's also possible that height and attractiveness are correlated with competence (e.g. because healthy diets as children influence all three attributes), in which case we'd expect to see more tall/attractive people promoted even in a meritocracy (though perhaps not to the observed degree).

Or indeed, height/attractiveness could be (almost certainly are) correlated with self-confidence and assertiveness. Which is obviously something of a chicken/egg thing.

I don't think confidence or assertiveness cause height

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#96

I'm slightly apprehensive (terrified) about commenting on this topic or any relating to gender/race because it seems like the bar for public crucifixion is somewhat low, even to those who just want to add data or other side-points to a discussion. Anyway, and I apologize in advance if I derail the topic, but I think there's a semi important distinction to qualify this discussion, because I do think the discussion app…

There's a line in the John Adams miniseries where the Continental Congress had just selected Washington to lead the army. Ben Franklin turns to Adams and says: "he was bound to lead something; he's the tallest man in the room". Apocryphal, sure. A clever mnemonic, you bet.

Mnemonic?

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#97
post #29

Interestingly, I just spoke with a colleague yesterday who admitted (without shame) that he recently campaigned (successfully) to have an attractive female hired into his group. I asked him about her qualifications, and he said she seemed capable, but not exceptional. He stressed that, at least to him, her appearance outweighted her abilities. Incidents like this make me wonder if some sort of anonymous interviewing…

Google, for example, does not have teams make hiring decisions for teammates.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#98
post #11

I recall reading about a similar prejudice in the promotion of men. In the case of men it's height not prettiness. EDIT: simonsarris beat me by 3 minutes wit better data, so I'll throw in another data point. In the past 25 presidential elections the taller or tying candidate won 19 times. Before that it is more even, perhaps because it was harder to see the differences.

How many were ties? 19/25 is already a smallish margin.
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