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Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

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Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#91

Post by kerno »

mhurron wrote: post #65
ckrailo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same level of excellence.

First: Praise given always is meaningless. Second: Criticism is not always 'angry' Third: Consider dealing with the crass criticism as a life lesson. Fourth: Mindless praise is not going to help you grow Fifth: How you present something will often determine the type of response you get. You are going to leave kindergarten some day, the world isn't all gold stars. You are going to have to deal with people giving a cri…

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "Hey, that's a nice attempt. You can do better next time by looking at this, or this, and did you consider that". Suddenly you've taught someone something, and you didn't have to bend your principles all out of shape giving meaningless praise.

No-one is expecting you to give out gold stars.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#92

Post by freshhawk »

mhurron wrote: post #54
kyro wrote: post #46

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward. To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with t…

We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends.

Good luck with that sentiment.

Everyone assumes that there are already too many places online for professional peers to discuss/debate subjects related to their expertise. There are very few but that hardly matters.

There is constant social pressure for outreach efforts, to be beginner friendly, to educate others. Partly because it's seen as more altruistic (a sentiment I understand but disagree with) and partly because professionals frequently have complete disdain for educators and feel they can do a good job of encouraging and educating beginners even though they have no experience or expertise in education.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#94

Post by freshhawk »

danilocampos wrote: post #5
ddunkin wrote: post #2

How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? I'm all about encouragement, but if we treat them differently because of age, we are just sheltering them from the real world (the Internet hardly counts there, I know). The Internet may not be the safest place to be taught how to accept criticism, but it is a lot easier to take (and more productive) when the attacks…

> How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? How about because it's not that simple? Being a teenager is fraught with insecurity, loneliness and the perception of being misunderstood. Lots of their maturity is still cooking. The teen years are also very formative. So if we can take an extra moment to give them the right nudge early in their trajectory, the fi…

I agree but have one nagging doubt that won't go away. Is it really ridiculous to want one "adults only" community of professional peers that isn't invite-only or purposefully hard to find?

I find it enormously fulfilling to mentor younger programmers and have luckily had many chances to do so. But my personal development always suffered at those places compared to the places where I was working mostly with those near my level or above it.

An online community can't serve two masters, it is either mainly for peer discussion (and elitist) or it is mainly beginner friendly. Beginner friendly often wins out because: "won't somebody please think of the children" is a discussion ender.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#95

Post by brudgers »

biot wrote: post #59
kyro wrote: post #46

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward. To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with t…

And how is a response of "That's pretty good for a 14 year old" of any help? If the critique should not take into account the age of the creator, then why should the request for the critique mention it? Shouldn't everyone who shows initiative and a willingness to learn be encouraged through respectful and civil feedback, regardless of whether they're 14 or 40?

Just like novelists, there probably aren't any great fourteen year old developers. Just some are are less bad than others. And some who have a higher ceiling when it comes to developing their talent.

Any critic worth a listen can tailor their message to their audience. Some messages which make sense for a fourteen year old boy don't for a forty-four year man - e.g. "stay in school."

Children are not miniature adults.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#96

Post by niggler »

jtheory wrote: post #84
mhurron wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First: Praise given always is meaningless. Second: Criticism is not always 'angry' Third: Consider dealing with the crass criticism as a life lesson. Fourth: Mindless praise is not going to help you grow Fifth: How you present something will often determine the type of response you get. You are going to leave kindergarten some day, the world isn't all gold stars. You are going to have to deal with people giving a cri…

There's a nasty illogic to this sequence, but I see it all the time. A. "The world isn't all gold stars" (a.k.a. "it's a dog-eat-dog world out there", or "there are a lot of hardasses out there", etc.), THEREFORE B. I'm personally not going to pull any punches for this naive/hopeful/idealistic/etc. young person. This isn't logic; it's a weak rationalization for being an asshole, because there's a certain pleasure to…

I've seen the following happen way too often: from a young age, kids are told they are child prodigies and maintain top status in high school. Then they enter college and meet people who are more intelligent or proficient and can't seem to accept the reality of the situation.

As an example, there was one section of organic chemistry for freshmen, and to get into that class you had to have a 5 in AP chem and pass two exams. I saw many of my classmates (Columbia) who were genuinely taken aback that they weren't the top of the freshman class -- and many of these self-styled rock stars never heard of the IChO!

It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age than to be shocked much later in life. And holding back criticisms now really does a disservice later in life.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#97

Post by kveykva »

jneen wrote: post #52
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #43

Memo to self: Make mentoring site (hackernewsmentor.com) Where old and weary can openly agree certain SLAs With the young and enthusiastic If more of us see it publically more of us will be encouraged to answer a months worth of questions on perl As for me - I could have done with a mentor not for technical issues - but for the life and career choices I made badly twenty years ago - but I would only have take. Advice…

I'm in. Let me know when you get started with this, I'll help build it.

I'd definitely help as well if I could be of any use.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#98

Post by jasonlotito »

vishnumenon wrote: post #35

As the author of the "ugly and short-sighted essay" in question, I want to just mention that I meant no hard feelings to anyone of any age, and tried hard to critique the behavior, not the person, Sorry if it came across as ugly. However, I stand by my opinion. I believe that there are plenty of other places these teens can go for blanket approval and yes-men, such as friends and family. HN is, to me, reserved for un…

Their is a difference between being polite and offering mature and considerate criticism. I believe your article used the word manipulative to describe the use of age in the title. The irony was most likely lost on you.

I could critique the word choice by saying that using that word suggests that the author is being dishonest and deceitful. Manipulative, while technically correct in the abstract, is not necessarily accurate when one considers that the intent might merely to have been to provide context. At the same time using the word manipulative brings along baggage you might not intend. Manipulative implies intent on the part of the person doing the manipulation.

I could also critique your use of the word in another way (and,as it so happens, the way you used it). Keep in mind, this is still technically correct.

Your use of the word manipulative is deceitful. Your use of the word suggests you know intent, and your use of the word attempts to do what you accuse the the original posters of doing: attempting to manipulate the reader by framing the argument as one against deceitful, manipulative, and by extension, distrustful young people. Words are powerful, and your word choice demonstrates that, at the very least, you either have no clue, or your a vile, deceitful individual.

Both methods of critique are valid. One addresses the problem, the other addresses the person. Both are unbiased and fair criticisms, but only one is polite.

We, as a community should strive to encourage. This is not any where close to blanket approval or being yes men. But do NOT for a minute think that good, helpful criticism is simply unbiased and fair. It is not.

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#99

Post by jasonlotito »

niggler wrote: post #96
jtheory wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a nasty illogic to this sequence, but I see it all the time. A. "The world isn't all gold stars" (a.k.a. "it's a dog-eat-dog world out there", or "there are a lot of hardasses out there", etc.), THEREFORE B. I'm personally not going to pull any punches for this naive/hopeful/idealistic/etc. young person. This isn't logic; it's a weak rationalization for being an asshole, because there's a certain pleasure to…

I've seen the following happen way too often: from a young age, kids are told they are child prodigies and maintain top status in high school. Then they enter college and meet people who are more intelligent or proficient and can't seem to accept the reality of the situation. As an example, there was one section of organic chemistry for freshmen, and to get into that class you had to have a 5 in AP chem and pass two…

There is a difference between good criticism and bad criticism though. I see nothing wrong with encouraging the former and discouraging the latter, which is what the OP was talking about.

So, when you talk about criticism in a general way, you are missing the point. No one is suggesting we coddle anyone. We should however remain professional, which is the problem some people are having.

Unless you are saying that we should encourage all criticism, even bad criticism?

Re: Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

#100

Post by jacquesm »

It's not just the blog article. It's also the attitude of people that will berate a youngster for being young and going out on a limb to show what they've made and making the mistake of telling us their age. That age thing is not a qualifier of pride, it's a guide to the mental state and the amount of experience the poster has. What amazes me most is that after seeing how one young developer gets treated that the next one still dares to post at all.

Danilocampos is exactly right. As far as career advice or tech advice, if you think I can contribute regardless of age feel free to contact me as well, j@ww.com . I can't promise to always be immediately available but I'll do my best.

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