Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

xconomy.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 318 posts

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#91

Post by bradleyjg »

lisper wrote: post #66
basseq wrote: post #34

I did a quick google and found a discussion of retroactive tax laws (applying to gift taxes in 2010): http://www.assetprotectionsociety.org/the-likelihood-and-enf... Potential arguments include due process, "wholly new tax", lack of notice, ex post facto (with the same caveat as mentioned here about applicability only to criminal cases), and the fifth amendment taking clause. Conclusion: it's hard to fight.

> applicability only to criminal cases Where do you get that? The Constitution says simply: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." Period, end of story. Just because someone on the Internet says this applies only to criminal law doesn't make it so.

How about the US Supreme Court:

See Carpenter v. Pennsylvania, 58 U.S. 456 (1854):

"The debates in the federal convention upon the Constitution show that the terms "ex post facto laws" were understood in a restricted sense, relating to criminal cases only, and that the description of Blackstone of such laws was referred to for their meaning. 3 Mad.Pap. 1399, 1450, 1579.

This signification was adopted in this Court shortly after its organization in opinions carefully prepared, and has been repeatedly announced since that time. Calder v. Bull, 3 Dall. 386; Fletcher v. Peck, 6 Cranch 87; 33 U. S. 8 Pet. 88; 36 U. S. 11 Pet. 421."

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#92

Post by Maascamp »

kjackson2012 wrote: post #71
run4yourlives wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will work until one of the Microsofts of the world decides it's more cost effective to move everyone 2 hours drive north to Vancouver than it is to pay this giant bill. The US is quickly going to learn that there is a rather modern country to the north that isn't in the same financial distress as Europe or most states are. I'd imagine given that, this line of thinking would probably play itself out pdq.

You don't know much about Vancouver if you think this is a realistic possibility. Vancouver, BC has barely any tech industry (a few software companies like Business Objects, and EA Sports are up there, but nothing meaningful), and the taxes are high. British Columbia has one of the highest tax rate in Canada. One of my Canadian friends told me that the 50% marginal tax rate started around $65k, although I haven't dou…

The corporate tax rate is actually lower than it is in the US though.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#93

Post by waterlesscloud »

Aloisius wrote: post #68
DannyBee wrote: post #13

We can't effectively manage a budget, give us more money!

Actually, California's budget is balanced and it expects a surplus in two years. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/us/california-balances-its...

Well, sure, once you start passing retroactive taxes.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#94

Post by pc86 »

Osiris wrote: post #55
untog wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't come to New York, then. If your access to rifles is more important than the tax codes your startup may or may not face, stay where you are.

To other child post: FUD. What the heck does NY have to do with the federal constitution? It takes 3/4 of states to pass a new amendment, so it's not like NY can do it on it's own. The second amendment limits the federal government from passing certain kinds of laws.

Oh, so I guess there would be no recourse should NY pass a law outlawing newspapers, or barring the assembly of more than two people at any time? The Constitution absolutely does limit federal and state (and county, and municipal, and every) government. It clearly limits the federal government more but to say the second amendment isn't limiting states (either via text or SCOTUS case law) is not true.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#95

Post by w1ntermute »

jstalin wrote: post #74
flagnog wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Detroit... oh, wait - Western Michigan. Should be a new state.

Indeed. Avoid eastern Michigan. Western Michigan is like a totally different state.

What are some good cities in Western Michigan?

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#96

Post by pc86 »

lisper wrote: post #66
basseq wrote: post #34

I did a quick google and found a discussion of retroactive tax laws (applying to gift taxes in 2010): http://www.assetprotectionsociety.org/the-likelihood-and-enf... Potential arguments include due process, "wholly new tax", lack of notice, ex post facto (with the same caveat as mentioned here about applicability only to criminal cases), and the fifth amendment taking clause. Conclusion: it's hard to fight.

> applicability only to criminal cases Where do you get that? The Constitution says simply: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." Period, end of story. Just because someone on the Internet says this applies only to criminal law doesn't make it so.

> Period, end of story.

Despite flailing politicians on both sides of the aisle, the Constitution is not as clear-cut as that.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#98

Post by gte910h »

thebooktocome wrote: post #64
victorhn wrote: post #56

Come to Mexico, beautiful beaches, good weather, what else do you want?

A lack of institutionalized corruption and organized crime?

Exactly. I don't ever plan on living someplace I need kidnapping insurance.

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#99

Post by jmtulloss »

lisper wrote: post #66
basseq wrote: post #34

I did a quick google and found a discussion of retroactive tax laws (applying to gift taxes in 2010): http://www.assetprotectionsociety.org/the-likelihood-and-enf... Potential arguments include due process, "wholly new tax", lack of notice, ex post facto (with the same caveat as mentioned here about applicability only to criminal cases), and the fifth amendment taking clause. Conclusion: it's hard to fight.

> applicability only to criminal cases Where do you get that? The Constitution says simply: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." Period, end of story. Just because someone on the Internet says this applies only to criminal law doesn't make it so.

See Calder v. Bull (1798).

Unfortunately our law is not only the constitution, but also hundreds of years of decisions surrounding it. Makes it hard for any layperson to actually know what the law is!

Re: California To Hit Startup Founders with Big Retroactive Tax Bills

#100

Post by w1ntermute »

bjornsing wrote: post #52
basseq wrote: post #34

I did a quick google and found a discussion of retroactive tax laws (applying to gift taxes in 2010): http://www.assetprotectionsociety.org/the-likelihood-and-enf... Potential arguments include due process, "wholly new tax", lack of notice, ex post facto (with the same caveat as mentioned here about applicability only to criminal cases), and the fifth amendment taking clause. Conclusion: it's hard to fight.

Some things about the US still surprise me. In "socialist Sweden" (as it's sometimes called) retroactive taxation is unconstitutional. On the other hand capital gains is 20-30%, and most entrepreneurs actually have their gains taxed as income. That means you're lucky if you get to keep 13%. ;) I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much.

> Some things about the US still surprise me. In "socialist Sweden" (as it's sometimes called) retroactive taxation is unconstitutional.

The difference between the US and postage-stamp-sized European countries like Sweden is that there is great political and cultural variation between different parts of the US. California is chock full of socialists/liberals.

Post reply on HN