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Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

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Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#91

Post by inigyou »

remuskaos wrote: post #87
siren2026 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School starts way too early. That's something we need to change. I grew up in Europe and school started at 9AM. Which allowed for an 8AM wake up. Unlike here where my kids need to wake up at 6AM. Absolutely ridiculous

"I grew up in Europe" can literally be any one of over 40 different countries, and even more education systems. I am in Germany, and school starts at 8 in Berlin, 8:05 in Wiesbaden, 7:45 in some small cities in Baden-Württemberg... And those are only the ones that I, personally, experienced. I'm sure Poland and Spain have different times, not lastly owing to timezones etc. Please don't treat all of Europe as one sing…

Note that Germany is one or two hours off from what its natural timezone would be, to align with more of Europe.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#92

Post by siren2026 »

remuskaos wrote: post #87
siren2026 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School starts way too early. That's something we need to change. I grew up in Europe and school started at 9AM. Which allowed for an 8AM wake up. Unlike here where my kids need to wake up at 6AM. Absolutely ridiculous

"I grew up in Europe" can literally be any one of over 40 different countries, and even more education systems. I am in Germany, and school starts at 8 in Berlin, 8:05 in Wiesbaden, 7:45 in some small cities in Baden-Württemberg... And those are only the ones that I, personally, experienced. I'm sure Poland and Spain have different times, not lastly owing to timezones etc. Please don't treat all of Europe as one sing…

Yes Germany is famous for starting too early, it is an outlier.

The 5 countries around where I grew up have starting times between 8:30AM and 9AM. Overall Europe is simply nor as much as a morning culture as the US. Probably because life is more communal and cities have things to do in the evening (in the US, my theory is that car culture killed all energy in the evenings).

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#93

Post by siren2026 »

theusus wrote: post #89
siren2026 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a night owl who tried to fight it for too long my advice is don't change your natural circadian rythm. For some reason hustle influencer culture made us believe we should wake up at 6AM for a productive day. We all have 24 hours, just do what works for you. Most of Europe doesn't wake up that early. Only the US is obsessed with 4AM hustle culture. Stop that! I tried to change my sleep for 10 years and for the last…

Waking up at 6 AM and doing workout did wonders to my mental health.

What do you think was the difference with working out in the evening or just shifting your day by a couple hours?

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#94

Post by maccard »

margor wrote: post #86
maccard wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being charitable to OP, I think their advice is to look after your health before hyper focusing on your sleep. I’ve had a similar experience - the better I care for my body the better my sleep is (and the opposite is a self reinforcing cycle). For me, personally, CBT and therapy helped hugely with the feelings of overwhelm I got from feeling like I wasn’t getting enough sleep and gave me the tools to deal with the fa…

I could be convinced, however for me personally sleep defines how I feel throught the day, and if my sleep is bad or not restorative, it's almost impossible to take care of myself and adhere to "being healthy and mindful" because it requires just too much energy I won't have.

Yeah - that’s what I mean by it being a self reinforcing cycle. I have no kids which helps hugely, but I have a checklist of things to do that I made during a period when I was feeling good and had good habits. I don’t think it matters what that list is, but I’ve found that doing those things on that list has 0 impact on my mood that day but “would you rather be tired and not exercised than tired and exercised” is a good motivator for me.

Some element of it is not taking advantage of your body when you are restored - if you empty the tank every time you’re feeling good you’re always going to yo-yo a bit.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#95

Post by siren2026 »

ventana wrote: post #82
siren2026 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it worth it? Why are you fighting against your natural circadian rhythm? We still all got 24 hours right? My background is that as the poster above, I have always been a night owl, with the ability to function and wake up earlier if I need to. For years I have tried to change it because of beliefs like yours that it was "worth it". Whenever I tried to change it I would feel unergetic, crappy and unmotivated. I…

That's either before, or after you have kids (if ever). As long as the school starts, you have (almost) no choice.

I have kids. I have an amazing partner, but can also rally the days I need to get them to school myself. But even when I need to wake up abnormally early (kids should never wake up that early but that's a different debate) I still don't feel like going to sleep early.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#96

Post by siren2026 »

andrepd wrote: post #88
siren2026 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a night owl who tried to fight it for too long my advice is don't change your natural circadian rythm. For some reason hustle influencer culture made us believe we should wake up at 6AM for a productive day. We all have 24 hours, just do what works for you. Most of Europe doesn't wake up that early. Only the US is obsessed with 4AM hustle culture. Stop that! I tried to change my sleep for 10 years and for the last…

It's silly to say that "Europe" has substantially different working hours for the majority of the population, compared to the US. Grindset hustle sigma influencers are an outlier of course.

For having lived in both continents, American is generally an early morning culture and Europe is generally an evening culture. There are local differences within the continents of course.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#97

Post by jmacd »

ventana wrote: post #76
Itchyjohn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to completely stop caffeine, best to cut nicotine too. It's worth it. Watch out for caffeine In cola etc.

Being a coffee drinker, I would not agree with the "worth it" part, but I was indeed surprised to learn some time ago that a can of Diet coke contains 46 mg of caffeine, which is basically a half of espresso shot. We don't let kids drink coffee, but we let them drink coke, which just does not make any sense. Out of these two, I would assume espresso brings much less harm! Recently, I started using an app to track my…

I’m curious where you are located? I’m in Canada and I don’t think I know anyone who would let a child drink a coke. I have a 14 year old and it still isn’t something we’d offer.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#98

Post by siren2026 »

namanyayg wrote: post #84
magicalhippo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too found myself most productive after 9 pm. But when I moved on my own I found that it shifted quite naturally. I'd wake up earlier and go to bed earlier, and then productive peak shifted to be during working hours. I think for me the key factor was primarily that the house was quiet after 9 pm. When I was on my own it was quiet all day.

Exactly the same experience and I try to wake up with natural sunlight as much as possible. The productivity and mental boost from that is incomparable.

I experience the complete opposite.

If I wake up with sunlight I'm useless until noon. If I allow myself to sleep in the dark until when I feel it naturally, I will wake up at ~9AM and be super fresh mentally with a lot of positive energy.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#99

Post by budsniffer952 »

mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

I love that people have developed a "sleep stack" without ever even knowing if what they take is improving the effects of sleep.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#100

Post by budsniffer952 »

mettamage wrote: post #80
koliber wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a while back that our brains produce roughly 0.3 mg of melatonin when signaling us to go to sleep. When I occasionally do use melatonin I split a 1mg pill into half or thirds. I find that it works well enough to help me fall asleep. Wondering how the study would look if hwy used 1/2 mg doses.

Go to the Netherlands, to the Kruidvat (or Etos or something similar) and just buy a lifetime worth of supply of Melatonin. It's 0.1 mg. I'm Dutch and live here. But my wife is American. If I ever happen to live in the US (chances are there in my lifetime). I'm going to employ this strategy. I don't trust the US with this and the Netherlands has proven itself to me in this sense. There are probably many more European…

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