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Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

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Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#91

Post by doodlebugging »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #41

[flagged]

Very sad but true post. When you think about it many of the ones who are downvoting this post are the children and grandchildren of old dopeheads who created the market that the cartels eventually began to fill. None of this happened without the consent of ordinary Americans who chose to consume the illegal drugs. All of these people share responsibility for the deaths of those who lost their lives due to addiction, whether theirs or someone else's. The tens of thousands of people who have died in Mexico and Central America while trying to stay out of the way of these cartels and their violence all died because Americans created and still sustain a market for illegal drugs.

Those with the most blame are the ones highest placed in our system who knew about and facilitated the smuggling, paying Americans along the way to assist, so that drugs could be located by anyone interested no matter where in this country they lived. They helped create the system that would lead to incarceration of people at the bottom of the ladder while those at the top who financed it all and benefited the most from it escape accountability. They created a network of small-town airports, private airstrips, and safe houses where distribution could be managed in a way that shielded the money people from the operations.

If you are a drug user, even a casual experimenter in your own home, your drug use continues to cause death and misery to uncounted other people and that makes you partly responsible for the societal destruction that drugs have wrought.

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#92

Post by tavavex »

doodlebugging wrote: post #91
TacticalCoder wrote: post #41

[flagged]

Very sad but true post. When you think about it many of the ones who are downvoting this post are the children and grandchildren of old dopeheads who created the market that the cartels eventually began to fill. None of this happened without the consent of ordinary Americans who chose to consume the illegal drugs. All of these people share responsibility for the deaths of those who lost their lives due to addiction,…

> When you think about it many of the ones who are downvoting this post are the children and grandchildren of old dopeheads who created the market that the cartels eventually began to fill.

Are you implying that drug use is hereditary and that most people are downvoting because they are themselves complicit, and not because they could have counterarguments?

> If you are a drug user, even a casual experimenter in your own home, your drug use continues to cause death and misery to uncounted other people and that makes you partly responsible for the societal destruction that drugs have wrought.

Many types of illegal substances aren't produced by any types of violent organizations. Those only concern themselves with the most addictive and highest-margin hard drugs. You're saying that anything illegal is automatically complicit in violence on account of being illegal.

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#93

Post by tavavex »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #41

[flagged]

> I think the US should be punishing consumers much, much, much more.

It's scary to think what you could possibly mean by this. The US is already one of the most ruthless Western countries as far as drug use goes. Owning half a kilo of weed in Texas can now get you life in prison, so how much further are you willing to go? Automatic life in prison? Life in solitary confinement? Maybe bring public lashings over from the east? Death penalty or forced hard labor? What else could the US come up with?

The shocking thing is that after decades after decades of this, the Americans just want to keep going. Doesn't matter that drug use continues in spite of harsher punishments, demonstrably showing that more punishment does next to nothing in terms of solving the problem. But at least some internet commenters get really happy imagining people suffering, while the actual producers and distributors run free. "Have fun thinking about those crimes other people committed that they won't ever face any reprecussions for."

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#94

Post by ButlerianJihad »

ifwinterco wrote: post #62
inigyou wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These gangs are states. We can tell this because they have monopolies on violence.

Reminds me of when ISIS was at its peak a few years ago and the BBC and all other news in the UK would always prefix it with “the so-called Islamic State”. Like… no, it was a state. It had borders, it had a monopoly on violence within those borders, it collected taxes, it provided some public services. Whether it offended the BBC’s sensibilities or not, it was a state

The international community does not merely use dictionary definitions. If the government of the UK, in consensus with other neighbors and member states, cannot or chooses not to recognize sovereignty of some entity, then “so-called” is the best they can do.

Unfortunately this gives commoners tunnel-vision, because yes: if there are entities in Mexico that have qualities like nation-states, and even function more like this than the constitutional government, the media and the diplomatic corps are prevented from promoting the dictionary definition of “state” to apply it to unrecognized entities.

As siblings point out, when the corruption and gang activity is more or less integrated into state apparatus, they are overlapping in function and identity, and so a “shadow state” status emerges with unelected leaders, unwritten laws, and street justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Declaration_of_the_Independe...

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#95

Post by esseph »

monkaiju wrote: post #6
tejohnso wrote: post #2

So you're forced to join a gang and fight their rival gangs, or you form your own gang equipped with rifles and grenades ready to commit violence, so that you can fight against joining that gang, or any other gang. Either way you're in a violent gang. I guess I'd rather have the state maintain a monopoly on violence.

Not sure its fair to equate a gang fueled by drug smuggling to a self-defense militia.

[dead]

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#96

Post by esseph »

MrDrMcCoy wrote: post #89

The article said they got their arms smuggled in from the US, but that only explains the small arms and drones. Where are they getting hand grenades?

They make some of them, some of them are sold to them, some are traded to them for other things.

Mexican Cartels have gotten weapons from Russia before in several ways. This year the US took down a network connected to Viktor Bout and a $56mil arms trade for anti air launchers, automatic grenade launchers, rockets, drones, and military explosives.

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#97

Post by esseph »

atmavatar wrote: post #86
Kalanos wrote: post #10

the real war the US should be fighting

There's no need to fight. The proper solution is to end the war on drugs, allowing people to do what they will with their own bodies. Once people can legally buy their drugs, the cartels will starve. Use the money saved from reducing our prison population by 75% to pay for widely-accessible treatment for addiction as well as mental health problems. Build more affordable housing so homelessness is less of an issue. As…

> Once people can legally buy their drugs, the cartels will starve.

No, they did risk reduction plays decades ago into legit industries. It might hit them for 20-30%. Also they control a lot of rare earth minerals...

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#98

Post by [deleted] »

tavavex wrote: post #92
doodlebugging wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very sad but true post. When you think about it many of the ones who are downvoting this post are the children and grandchildren of old dopeheads who created the market that the cartels eventually began to fill. None of this happened without the consent of ordinary Americans who chose to consume the illegal drugs. All of these people share responsibility for the deaths of those who lost their lives due to addiction,…

> When you think about it many of the ones who are downvoting this post are the children and grandchildren of old dopeheads who created the market that the cartels eventually began to fill. Are you implying that drug use is hereditary and that most people are downvoting because they are themselves complicit, and not because they could have counterarguments? > If you are a drug user, even a casual experimenter in your…

[deleted]

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#99

Post by tonyedgecombe »

0dayz wrote: post #88
atmavatar wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need to fight. The proper solution is to end the war on drugs, allowing people to do what they will with their own bodies. Once people can legally buy their drugs, the cartels will starve. Use the money saved from reducing our prison population by 75% to pay for widely-accessible treatment for addiction as well as mental health problems. Build more affordable housing so homelessness is less of an issue. As…

That is a pipedream coming from some one who supports drug legalization, you think a multi billion dollar enterprise with unique position of having weapons and even armies are gonna pack their bags after USA become a drug haven? No they will do what they do now: Expand into other illegal and legal venues and worst case attempt a coup.

> Expand into other illegal and legal venues and worst case attempt a coup.

Stuff that is less likely to spill over the border into the US.

Re: Civilians under siege by Mexican cartel fight back with AK-47s, grenades

#100

Post by nirui »

int0x29 wrote: post #3

These self defense groups sound great until you think about all the problems with vigilante groups. Also they have a history of turning into cartels. That and all things being equal I suspect most of the people in these groups would rather not be fighting.

Based on all the historical events, I'm guessing it'll eventually balance itself out. The violent vigilante groups are one critical weight on the scale. Without it, the cartels will have free-range to commit whatever atrocity they want without needing to think about the consequences.

Now, with these vigilante groups that speaks the exact same language that the cartels too understands, it gives those cartels a reason to think before they bully civilians. Because if they did it wrong, there's a chance some of them will start to lose bodyparts in a very unanesthetical way. If a few once incontestable cartel leaders puts on a show of crying and begging for mercy in a darknet video, it tends to educate everyone on what power really means potentially in a good way.

Of course, none of it is reasonable and civil, it's the darkest part of human behavior, but sadly sometimes it's the only way to communicate with the bad people. Mr. Hitler didn't surrender because the allies did a good job showing him that killing is bad, instead they bomb that rat in his own hole and scared him to death.

I don't like violence and I don't like people who uses it unnecessarily, but it's still a tool in the toolbox just in case the opponent is that unrecoverably bad.

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