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Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

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Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#91
post #61
post #30

I wonder if during descent instead of cutting power alot to control speed it can instead use the energy to charge the batteries.

Says that it's boost-only in all the literature I could see, so it can only add power to the prop not generate with it. Regardless, you don't really get into a position where you're harvesting energy in a plane - you just use less power while you're descending. Unlike in a car, most of a passenger jet's flight time is at speeds where drag (which squares with speed) basically means you'd have to nose down at a very ag…

> you'd have to nose down at a very aggressive angle to actually pick up speed

Sorry but what the hell are you talking about? Airliners are heavy, very aerodynamic, very easy to overspeed and they regularly actively brake on descent!

Unless there are other constraints on the approach, the point of the entire descent phase is to have the engines IDLING the whole time. The FMC actually calculates the descent profile backwards, starting from the earliest known constraint (e.g. a certain point at 5000 ft) and extending that back into the air accounting for the expected weight and drag of the plane. The descent phase often begins more than a hundred kilometers from the destination. Remember how they tell you in the cabin that the plane is starting to descent and you should put your laptop away etc? That's when the engines go to idle and if everything goes right, they won't spool up again until just dozens of second before touchdown. The goal of the entire industry is to have that happen as often as possible, on as many airports as possible.

If the plane is a bit heavier or less draggy than expected, or if the approach requires a steeper descent at some point, the airplane will calculate all that (in advance!) and let the pilot know (e.g. a DRAG REQUIRED message) and will require spoiler deployment. This is very common.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#92
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Says that it's boost-only in all the literature I could see, so it can only add power to the prop not generate with it. Regardless, you don't really get into a position where you're harvesting energy in a plane - you just use less power while you're descending. Unlike in a car, most of a passenger jet's flight time is at speeds where drag (which squares with speed) basically means you'd have to nose down at a very ag…

Yea that makes sense. Can't be hitting stall speed. Although maybe there's an argument for less load / wear on the turbine motor if the electric motors could be involved during landing ? Or maybe you keep your downsized turbine motor running closer to peak efficiency even during landing and increase the mechanical energy harvesting to your APU or alternator thing or whatever to control speed and use that to charge a…

Supercapacitors are heavy and basically useless for any kind of propulsion. Note how neither e-bikes nor EVs use them. You need a proper lithium battery if you need any usable amount of energy.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#93
post #44

1300 HP electric engine power, now that's an achievement. I do wonder if prop engines can act as "windmills" (similar to turbine engines, which often in accidents still have been found to provide a bit of hydraulic power), which means regenerative braking could be used instead of speedbrakes.

There would never be a reason to use windmilling props in flight for electrical generation. Even when descending, airliners like the Dash 8 need at least some forward thrust in order to maintain control and stay on the glide slope. They only use reverse thrust for a few seconds during the landing roll.

Note that these are more like turboprop quirks, not "airliners". Turbofans will idle happily from cruise to final approach, Dash 8 will not.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#94
post #31

Nothing on recharging the battery in the landing phase, so room for improvement.

Not really much room. Unlike a car going down a hill, an airplane descending still wants thrust from the engines, just not as much as in cruise.

Exactly like a car going down a hill, a descending plane doesn't need any thrust for anything in particular. Planes are notoriously aerodynamic and can trade altitude for speed easily. (Note how gliders don't need any thrust at all.)

There are SOME planes where you want to avoid the "no thrust" situation because their implementation of "no thrust" can lead to weird aerodynamics or prop pitch behavior, or can stress the engine.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#96
post #89
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you imagine happens if the battery is low and the car wants to start from a stop? The engine can't shift down to first so it would just stall out if you tried to use it to drive the driveshaft directly, and there's no other source of electricity to put into the motor driving the wheels.

It's a planetary geartrain, with electric motors on the outer and inner, and the gas on the middle. If the electric is _completely_ dead, the gas will just spin without driving the wheels at all. There is no first gear, the mechanical advantage and “clutching” all comes from the inner electrical motor driving the sun gear, while the electric boost/drive comes from the electric motor on the drift shaft (which is on th…

> the gas will just spin without driving the wheels

... and instead drive one of the motors, generating electricity to power the other motor to push the car forward.

I feel like that video you're mentioning did a poor job if it didn't describe one of the more important and clever aspects of the Prius's design.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#97
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a planetary geartrain, with electric motors on the outer and inner, and the gas on the middle. If the electric is _completely_ dead, the gas will just spin without driving the wheels at all. There is no first gear, the mechanical advantage and “clutching” all comes from the inner electrical motor driving the sun gear, while the electric boost/drive comes from the electric motor on the drift shaft (which is on th…

I think what they're trying to say is that there are regimes in which the HSD actually shunts energy from one electric motor to the other (i.e. one of them is "braking" and acting like a generator and the other one driving) and a big part (maybe the majority even) of all power goes through that path. This works even if the battery is empty, because the electricity isn't coming from the outside, it's coming from the s…

Exactly. The vast majority of the launching torque comes from the electric motor, even if there is no battery at all.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#98
post #41

This is very clever: instead of focusing on electric only flight, just make the existing engine fly in the most efficient window while the electric engine buffers the flight profile. Like a big-boy prius.

Cars have a wide operating band, which is why hybrids make sense. Fundamentally, hybrid cars want to run the engine at a narrow set of operating points that are most efficient, and use a reservoir to do time arbitrage on the energy generated during driving. It's more than just regen to recover energy already spent -- the motor also lets you navigate the engine map to pick your point of operation. Ideally, the engine…

I think they have gone for turboprop for a few reasons:

There's an economy of scale with turbofans to some degree. Large high bypass turbofans are extremely efficient, particularly at their cruising mode.

Smaller regional aircraft have more of their fuel consumption dominated by takeoff - the cruising altitude portion of the flight is smaller in proportion.

When doing something experimental, do it on something small to start with. Then scale up when you've got it working.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you care about leaded fuel, the culprit now is general aviation - small airports, Cessnas, not commercial flights. If you go work on it, let me know, I'll help you!

Dont we have approved fuel replacement for leaded fuel now finally ? Also I swear there was a company replacing a push pull type plane with a hybrid ?

We don't require unleaded fuel for GA.

Re: Hybrid-Electric Aicraft Engine Targeting 30% Fuel Efficiency

#100
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really much room. Unlike a car going down a hill, an airplane descending still wants thrust from the engines, just not as much as in cruise.

Exactly like a car going down a hill, a descending plane doesn't need any thrust for anything in particular. Planes are notoriously aerodynamic and can trade altitude for speed easily. (Note how gliders don't need any thrust at all.) There are SOME planes where you want to avoid the "no thrust" situation because their implementation of "no thrust" can lead to weird aerodynamics or prop pitch behavior, or can stress t…

A car going down a slight hill on the freeway still needs a bit of gas to maintain speed.

My assertion is that there are no turboprop plans that can maintain a 3° glideslope at normal approach speed without thrust from the engines. If you think there is such a plane, name the type, and show me a citation from it's POH to support the claim.

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