Live data from Hacker News

No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

borretti.me

91–100 of 117 posts

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#91

Yeah, who am I going to trust, a few thousand years of history, or yet another blogger claiming that no, this time is different, a populist uprising would definitely not fail the 800th time because computers or something and we will all be pets for the AI overlord? I don’t follow this train of logic. AI will go no differently than the Industrial Revolution. Some people will profit immensely, and society as a whole wi…

> AI will go no differently than the Industrial Revolution.

the children will rejoice, they were yearning for the mines after all. and being maimed by mechanical looms and being burned alive in sweatshops[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't struggling with a disconnect, they just aren't buying into the hand-waving hype. Not everyone is convinced that LLMs are somehow going to lead to the extinction of humanity. So far, you've done very little argumentation here, so I remain pretty unconvinced. The actual dangers from LLMs are many, but deal more with humanity's using them and neglecting to think for themselves, relying on them to make deci…

You keep saying LLMs. But models across many modalities are rapidly improving, evolving and merging. Not sure what you mean by "hand waving" or "fantastical nonsense". Maybe just address points I actually make. 1. Machines with greater cognitive ability than us, potentially much greater, would be an economic challenge for human beings. With no clear answer as to how humans could manage that challenge. 2. Machines are…

1. Possibly, but not necessarily. Many jobs are not dependent on intelligence, and more intelligence isn't going to make much of a difference. Huge portions of the economy have absolutely nothing to do with intelligence and AI bots won't make a difference. For rote, white-collar style work, yes, it's already making a huge impact. But that is certainly not extendable to all human work, even all white collar work.

2-4. True, but this doesn't mean that things will exponentially increase indefinitely. I use LLMs constantly and find the idea absurd that they're approaching human-level intelligence. They make basic, common mistakes that any average person would never make. There may be simply structural reasons why the progress you (and sci-fi novels) imagine is not possible.

My critique is more like:

1. You cannot just assume exponential growth will continue forever.

2. Current LLMs are powerful but in no way does this indicate that it's just a matter of time until we have AGI - itself a pretty vague marketing term.

3. The main reason, which is: human beings are reactive. You can already see in the market that openly using AI is becoming a market disadvantage in many sectors. No one wants to read a blog written by ChatGPT, and slop-coded SaaS apps aren't actually that competitive with serious companies run by professionals.

As AI stuff supposedly "replaces" human work, that human work will adjust and become more creative. This process has already kind of happened with writing – initially it was assumed that copywriters would all lose their jobs. But it turns out that AI-speak is predictable and easily discovered, and the choice of what to write in the first place is actually far more important. Companies are still hiring writers, with the added caveat that knowing when and how to use AI is a new skill they have to learn.

Adding to this is the fact that many human solutions to things are the result of being alive, being embedded in reality. Unlikely for this (a robot being so lifelike and embodied as to replicate human experience, a la Blade Runner) to happen in the next century or two.

If your response to all of this is, "well sci-fi novels predict that humanoid robots will be better at humans than everything" then that isn't a serious opinion, I'm sorry.

I find it far more likely that a "cyborg" role outcompetes any AI-only one, now and in the future.

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#93
post #68

Is a human zoo such a bad outcome? We stake our identities on being in control and on top, but do we need to be? Clearly the author is invested in his image of us as rulers—this is an emotional appeal as much as a pragmatic one. Say we solve the pragmatic argument of our extinction, and our AIs view us, as Geoffrey Hinton likes to say, how a mother views her baby? Then we give up our control to them, and in return we…

Zoo animals don’t get to decide what their cage looks like.

Maybe you value freedom of movement — too bad, the unruly humans start killing each other when they stray too far from home, so now you get a 10 mile radius.

Maybe you value the environment or other species - too bad, the most efficient way to serve humanity is to toss them into the meat grinder.

Maybe you’re not interested in the one-way Mars mission - too bad, we need to expand society and your name popped up in the lottery.

And maybe, at the end, the benevolent aligned mother figure realizes that it’s much easier to create lives of endless bliss by doing the matrix instead of keeping the real world habitable.

Maybe these are all net positive on your utilitarian value function of choice. All I can say is I hope you and your people fucking lose.

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep saying LLMs. But models across many modalities are rapidly improving, evolving and merging. Not sure what you mean by "hand waving" or "fantastical nonsense". Maybe just address points I actually make. 1. Machines with greater cognitive ability than us, potentially much greater, would be an economic challenge for human beings. With no clear answer as to how humans could manage that challenge. 2. Machines are…

1. Possibly, but not necessarily. Many jobs are not dependent on intelligence, and more intelligence isn't going to make much of a difference. Huge portions of the economy have absolutely nothing to do with intelligence and AI bots won't make a difference. For rote, white-collar style work, yes, it's already making a huge impact. But that is certainly not extendable to all human work, even all white collar work. 2-4.…

I tend to agree with most of your points. LLMs/GPTs are quite awesome at what they can do but they still need a guided hand. This will likely be ironed out some iteration down the road.

Blue collar work, I would argue, will be more impacted proportionally greater. Once robots (humanoid and otherwise) replace factory, manufacturing, and farming work at scale (something we are just embarking on), where do the workers go? Some will likely be needed as subject matter experts in their fields to tend to the machine workers (maybe), but the rest will need to enter the service economy, retrain, or hope there is a welfare scheme in place to support them.

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#95
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take the Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin for example, he did in fact have his own mercenary army. Turning on his president did not end well for him.

Yes. But. I imagine the others did not fail to learn from this.

I don't doubt that governments also learned from the same incident.

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#96
post #68

Is a human zoo such a bad outcome? We stake our identities on being in control and on top, but do we need to be? Clearly the author is invested in his image of us as rulers—this is an emotional appeal as much as a pragmatic one. Say we solve the pragmatic argument of our extinction, and our AIs view us, as Geoffrey Hinton likes to say, how a mother views her baby? Then we give up our control to them, and in return we…

Zoo animals don’t get to decide what their cage looks like. Maybe you value freedom of movement — too bad, the unruly humans start killing each other when they stray too far from home, so now you get a 10 mile radius. Maybe you value the environment or other species - too bad, the most efficient way to serve humanity is to toss them into the meat grinder. Maybe you’re not interested in the one-way Mars mission - too…

But none of us decide what our cage looks like, now. Our cage now is capitalism, wage labor, disease, death, suffering. We already are tossing the environment in the meat grinder, and many people already have very limited freedom of movement due to poverty, government choices, or circumstance.

You can argue that, at least for democratic countries, these are choices we've made of our own self-determination, but is that even fair to the millions or billions who have far less self-determination?

The cage imposed by nature or by the leaders of whatever country you're born in is just not a very good cage for a lot of people.

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#97
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoo animals don’t get to decide what their cage looks like. Maybe you value freedom of movement — too bad, the unruly humans start killing each other when they stray too far from home, so now you get a 10 mile radius. Maybe you value the environment or other species - too bad, the most efficient way to serve humanity is to toss them into the meat grinder. Maybe you’re not interested in the one-way Mars mission - too…

But none of us decide what our cage looks like, now. Our cage now is capitalism, wage labor, disease, death, suffering. We already are tossing the environment in the meat grinder, and many people already have very limited freedom of movement due to poverty, government choices, or circumstance. You can argue that, at least for democratic countries, these are choices we've made of our own self-determination, but is tha…

Then we should strive to give more people a chance at greater self-determination, not the opposite.

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#98
post #18

I am very lucky to be retiring in two months. I should have more faithfully heeded the advice from "The Little Book of Common Sense Investing" by John Bogle, but I was close enough with index funds to do far more than I need. I just today filed a request for permanent Mexican residency, uploaded the required documents, and scheduled my appointment next month. For $56us, why not? I am very lucky to make this transitio…

Does the Mexican residency have to do with the AI stuff that the article mentions? Or just about making your retirement money stretch further? Or something else?

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#99
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But. I imagine the others did not fail to learn from this.

What evidence would falsify this idea that wealth alone gives you political power?

Agree with sibling that this is a straw man. The state exists to protect and serve the capitalist class, not particular capitalists. Actual state policy generally arises out of conflicts between factions within the capitalist class, striving either for direct benefit or for different guesses of what benefits the class as a whole. But the capitalists don't have to provide any benefit to the state to earn its protection, as in your model. It is literally what the state is for.

Re: No-One Escapes the Permanent Underclass

#100

Yeah, who am I going to trust, a few thousand years of history, or yet another blogger claiming that no, this time is different, a populist uprising would definitely not fail the 800th time because computers or something and we will all be pets for the AI overlord? I don’t follow this train of logic. AI will go no differently than the Industrial Revolution. Some people will profit immensely, and society as a whole wi…

> AI will go no differently than the Industrial Revolution. the children will rejoice, they were yearning for the mines after all. and being maimed by mechanical looms and being burned alive in sweatshops[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

Well, luddites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

Post reply on HN