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Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

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Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#91

Post by seiji »

bovik wrote: post #87
ryanx435 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you will probably be interested in this article that appeared ok Forbes awhile ago, entrepreneurs are the new labor: www.forbes.com/sites/venkateshrao/2012/09/03/entrepreneurs-are-the-new-labor-part-i/ its a long read, but worth it. it basically covers and expounded.upon the ideas you presented in your comment, that the incubators are exploiting the entrepreneurs

Just read Parts I and II of that article. Really interesting perspective. I've been talking to some recent YC "grads" in the valley and the amount of brainwashing they seem to have undergone is just shocking. And yet, so many more keep flocking to them year after year like lambs to the slaughter. Amazing.

the amount of brainwashing

I'd love to hear you expand on that (specific cases? the progression of delusion? were they crazy to start out?).

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#92

Post by bovik »

seiji wrote: post #91
bovik wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just read Parts I and II of that article. Really interesting perspective. I've been talking to some recent YC "grads" in the valley and the amount of brainwashing they seem to have undergone is just shocking. And yet, so many more keep flocking to them year after year like lambs to the slaughter. Amazing.

the amount of brainwashing I'd love to hear you expand on that (specific cases? the progression of delusion? were they crazy to start out?).

I won't give out specific names of course. The brainwashing is mostly around the cult of personality around pg. Everything he writes or espouses becomes gospel. Now, we all know he can write intelligently and with research on some things he knows well. But he can also sound equally confident spouting utter bullshit about stuff he knows nothing about (e.g. http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm ). Listening to ultra confident blowhards and separating bullshit from reality is a skill people tend to learn as they grow into the adult world.

But these are mostly people in their early to mid twenties who have little to no actual experience in the real world. They seem to believe startups and entrepreneurship was invented by this one man. The fact that after almost 200 investments, there are a sum total of two possibly viable businesses that may end up coming out of this enterprise seems to have no effect on that conviction (and one of them (airbnb) is teetering really close to edge of being unsustainable (pending the question of legal liabilities of renters as well city ordinances etc.)).

It really is a cult of personality with all connotations of the word "cult" coming into play.

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#93

Post by bitcartel »

bdcravens wrote: post #8

I think people are missing the biggest takeaway: everyone wants to get rich writing Rails apps in a weekend that really don't contribute, that our brightest minds are being wasted. Rather than creating things that are truly innovative, we're barely iterating on things that were barely iterations to being with.

Funny, 10 years ago, everybody wanted to get rich by getting into investment banking and work in credit derivatives, even if they would admit to you over a drink in the pub that they didn't actually understand what they were doing. Now we talk about the wasted talent. I guess the moral of the story is that easy money kills dreams.

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#94

Post by bitcartel »

genericresponse wrote: post #30
ryanisinallofus wrote: post #5

I really don't understand the hate with which Dan Lyons is speaking. Startups are crazy, sometimes hugely profitable companies that sometimes start up with the same money it takes to start a restaurant or less. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail, sometimes they are a complete joke. It's intense and awesome and that's why we are all drawn to it: huge potential. VCs are a part of it and without them this marke…

I think it's because the attitude in the startup community is ridiculously egotistical. It's a problem around development community as a whole but amplified with startups because there is a ton of get-rich-quick hero worship. The fact that someone can build a piece of code doesn't mean that it solves a problem. The fact that it solves a problem doesn't mean that they can get money for it. The fact that they can get m…

Have you seen Bravo's reality show 'Startups of Silicon Valley'? You'll want to cry.

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#95

Post by lmm »

tptacek wrote: post #19

This piece is unbelievably lazy. It is the easiest thing in the world to have written --- Lyons is, what, the 93rd person to hop on board this trend story? --- and yet the analysis in it crumbles to dust and floats away the moment you try to pick it up to look at it more closely. Go to medical school? Make real tech products? Don't build apps in a weekend? Avoid bus rides with Scoble? Not one person in the universe i…

There is value in a succinct, eloquent expression of what many people are saying. If nothing else this gives me a single page to point to in six months' time that captures the attitude we had now.

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#96

Post by pg »

bovik wrote: post #77
pg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When formulating this elaborate theory, did you stop to ask yourself why it would be in our interest to fund shitty startups when all the returns are concentrated in the most successful ones?

If you're actually willing to engage in this discussion, then here's your answer. YC and (other "incubators" like it) are basically opportunistically exploiting cheap/free labor of thousands of naive (mostly) young developers to play the lotto on the cheap. You throw in a laughably small amount of money for a good chunk of equity, encourage your young charges to go forth on a steady diet of ramen noodles and ketchup…

When you talk about flipping a company to VCs, it tells me you know nothing about this business. VCs don't acquire the stock of earlier investors; they just come in later and dilute you. But for the sake of completeness I'll address your point about acquirers. Stock in a company like Dropbox or Airbnb is worth literally a thousand times more than stock in a company that gets acquired early. If there is one type of company that generates 1000x higher returns than another, why would we spend our time focusing on the latter?

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#97

Post by YuriNiyazov »

bovik wrote: post #92
seiji wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the amount of brainwashing I'd love to hear you expand on that (specific cases? the progression of delusion? were they crazy to start out?).

I won't give out specific names of course. The brainwashing is mostly around the cult of personality around pg. Everything he writes or espouses becomes gospel. Now, we all know he can write intelligently and with research on some things he knows well. But he can also sound equally confident spouting utter bullshit about stuff he knows nothing about (e.g. http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm ).…

I don't understand why you are here, on a site run by pg, insulting him and yc.

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#98

Post by YuriNiyazov »

ryanx435 wrote: post #89
lotharbot wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "there is no way that pg can respond to this." Of course he could. He could point out that the meta-comment-game wherein any response whatsoever is considered to "lend credibility" is a silly game, and that in reality, whether or not he chooses to respond to you says nothing about your credibility. Then he could agree or disagree with your actual point, and either confirm or challenge your credibility with facts, i…

I actually agree with you. honestly I was surprised pg even responded to my first comment! I was like a dog who caught a car: I didn't know what to do with it. so I went meta (probably unsuccessfully) to see if he would respond again. I think I flubbed it, but than again you responded, so who knows? I guess ill find out tomorrow when I wake up and check. really, I'm not good at this.

"I'm not good at this"

Out of all the garbage that you've written, this is the only thing you are right about.

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#99

Post by bovik »

pg wrote: post #96
bovik wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're actually willing to engage in this discussion, then here's your answer. YC and (other "incubators" like it) are basically opportunistically exploiting cheap/free labor of thousands of naive (mostly) young developers to play the lotto on the cheap. You throw in a laughably small amount of money for a good chunk of equity, encourage your young charges to go forth on a steady diet of ramen noodles and ketchup…

When you talk about flipping a company to VCs, it tells me you know nothing about this business. VCs don't acquire the stock of earlier investors; they just come in later and dilute you. But for the sake of completeness I'll address your point about acquirers. Stock in a company like Dropbox or Airbnb is worth literally a thousand times more than stock in a company that gets acquired early. If there is one type of co…

PG, I'm glad to see you're at least willing to engage in the discussion.

The main point was not what end-point you're aiming (large exits, which btw, are yet to be realized for either airbnb or dropbox) or merely progressively higher valuations in further rounds of funding (let's not argue over how those are beneficial to earlier investors, shall we.)

The point was that hordes of fresh graduates are working their asses off for peanuts with minuscule probability of making up for lost time and income. (That's not even including possible losses to health and any conception of what the real world looks like). Mass incubators like yc and it's ilk are rolling the dice and the invested amounts are so tiny that the only substantial losses are those incurred by the founders.

The counter-argument of course is that the founders are adults and are entering into these agreements of their own volition. That's where the whole issue of cult-like mentality and the callow youth of most of these founders comes into play. The asymmetry in knowledge and power between these founders and investors is vast.

That's why I cheer the writer of the original post for bringing the ridiculousness of the whole situation into the open. Lord knows techcrunch and other tabloids like it are not going to publish anything like that. And that's why you personally applying the kill switch on that post is so distasteful.

Re: Let's All Shed Tears For The Crappy Startups That Can't Raise Any More Money

#100

Post by zaidf »

bovik wrote: post #99
pg wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you talk about flipping a company to VCs, it tells me you know nothing about this business. VCs don't acquire the stock of earlier investors; they just come in later and dilute you. But for the sake of completeness I'll address your point about acquirers. Stock in a company like Dropbox or Airbnb is worth literally a thousand times more than stock in a company that gets acquired early. If there is one type of co…

PG, I'm glad to see you're at least willing to engage in the discussion. The main point was not what end-point you're aiming (large exits, which btw, are yet to be realized for either airbnb or dropbox) or merely progressively higher valuations in further rounds of funding (let's not argue over how those are beneficial to earlier investors, shall we.) The point was that hordes of fresh graduates are working their ass…

What are the so-called "substantial losses" that you are talking about? May be you have some insider info that I don't but in my intimate conversations with dozens of fellow YC founders, I haven't run into anyone who wished they didn't do YC. I don't think you are being evil here but rather just have a belief that isn't based in reality.

Same thing for suggesting YC is all about freshly minted grads. A significant percentage of founders are in their late 20s and older making that assumption of yours inaccurate.

Frankly your post is offensive for painting founders as brainwashed dudes making terrible life decisions as they go about joining this imaginary cult. Do you really believe this?

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