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Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

paulkrugman.substack.com

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Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#91

Post by ngc248 »

thefz wrote: post #42
merksittich wrote: post #17

> What should worry Europe, instead, are the geopolitical implications of US/Chinese leadership in advanced technology. We used to have a global economic system overseen by a mostly benign and in any case law-abiding hegemon. That system was, however, gradually eroding with the rise of China, and has now taken a drastic hit with America’s abandonment of the rules it largely created. This is the underlying theme of Eu…

> We used to have a global economic system overseen by a mostly benign and in any case law-abiding hegemon Shall we starting to list chronologically US's interference with foreign states now, or... ?

> We used to have a global economic system overseen by a mostly benign and in any case law-abiding hegemon

This is probably due to the op being the denizen of a country which has not been affected by the aforesaid hegemon

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#92

Post by patrickmcnamara »

lp4v4n wrote: post #22

As someone who lives in Europe, my impression is that the continent's first priority is how to keep paying the fat pensions it pays to its retired class, the second priority is how to keep paying the pensions followed by a distant third about how to keep paying the pensions. For me it's remarkable how the continent lives looking at the past and not at the future. The older people I talk to show no concern about Europ…

I don't know why everyone is being so dismissive. Pensions in Europe nowadays are just transfers from young and poor to older and wealthier. The average French pensioner (not working) has a higher income than the average French worker (working).

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#93

Post by frm88 »

littlexsparkee wrote: post #47
shevy-java wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends on the country. Austria is doing quite well here. Why are there so many homeless people in the USA? If your assumption were to work, it would not be the case. You are simply making an incomplete analysis here. See: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewbiggs/2019/03/15/u-s-reti... It is from 2019, but things are still somewhat similar today.

5 European countries have higher homelessness rates than the US, total EU numbers also dwarf the US (1.3m vs 750k) https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/how-common-is-homel... https://www.notus.org/us-news/homeless-report-hud-president-... https://www.dw.com/en/eu-sees-rise-in-homelessness-amid-hous...

900 k for the EU: https://de.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/09/05/bericht-fast-90...

You third link uses different metrics than the other two.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#94

Post by soco »

tokai wrote: post #20

Its interesting that voices going on about European decline gets louder and louder the more the US slips into fragmentation, autocracy, debt, lower life expectancies, trust, and so on.

Just the best moment then to do something ourselves about that real or perceived decline, because the US isn't there to support anymore. And China or Russia have zero interest to support anything else - not that they should, I was just dropping names.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#95

Post by dzhiurgis »

pirate787 wrote: post #3

Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues…

I love spectating this criticism of Europe on X. I'm European, but live in NZ and just landed in Netherlands a week ago. While I'm generally very supportive of EU, it is indeed noticeable:

1. iOS asked me to select a default browser, but it wasn't working thus none of the links open for a while.

2. Cookie banners are holy-sheeet. I do see them while in NZ, but holy heck this is next level. They are huge and everywhere.

3. Gemini AI (and its cousin AI summaries in YouTube) is not available. Grok on my mates Tesla - not available (I think it's been out over a year on US).

4. It wasn't even a hot day, but no cooling in Amsterdam trams is insanity.

5. Some shops don't accept foreign cards. Also cards not accepted in red light district at all lol.

Bottle caps haven't bothered me, tiny housing is understandable and biking to places was nice. Workers everywhere seem unhappy and don't seem to be eager to work, but thats likely just local nuance.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#96

Post by soco »

b40d-48b2-979e wrote: post #75
RicoElectrico wrote: post #24

The apologetism of American socioeconomic system is a thing endemic to HN. Even Reddit with its USA-skewed demographic is far less delusional, for all its other faults. Same for other social media like YT. I suppose it's a distinction of well-to-do SWEs (and VCs alike) vs actual working class majority.

They are also weirdly pro-Israel and pro-surveillance (see any stories about Palantir or Palestine get flagged within minutes).

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#97

Post by dzhiurgis »

piva00 wrote: post #30
RandomLensman wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Europe doesn't need air conditioning? By what measures/what large countries don't have any need there?

Poland, Germany, Switzerland, Benelux, the Nordics, Baltics, most of Central Europe don't have a need for AC. It might make life more comfortable during some days of heatwaves but it's definitely not a need to survive. Southern Europe has experienced more scorching heat the past 1-2 decades and AC is going to become a necessity given the trend of climate warming but it's not Arizona. Also I think people aren't aware…

Baltics definitely have need for AC for few weeks in summer. Just because some people get by, doesn't mean there isn't a need.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#98

Post by dzhiurgis »

Gud wrote: post #78

I work in the energy sector for a manufacturer you’ve definitely heard of. The USA is ahead in certain industries, mostly information technology, but decades behind in others. Literally, you have technology most of Europe moved away from in the 80s(air insulated HV switchgear), where most of Europe now mostly builds gas insulated switchgear. Europa has a GDP on par with the USA. Honestly what do people think the prod…

> Europa has a GDP on par with the USA.

Nearly double per capita. That's not "on par", that's miles away.

> gas insulated HV switchgear

Air is a gas ;)

How much if this has to do with most lines in Europe going underground because high housing density?

I know for many power outages are unheard of, while for some are normal. People don't realize that in suburbs or exurbs that are popular in US power lines are simply overground and very susceptible to bad weather.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#99

Post by Gud »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #98
Gud wrote: post #78

I work in the energy sector for a manufacturer you’ve definitely heard of. The USA is ahead in certain industries, mostly information technology, but decades behind in others. Literally, you have technology most of Europe moved away from in the 80s(air insulated HV switchgear), where most of Europe now mostly builds gas insulated switchgear. Europa has a GDP on par with the USA. Honestly what do people think the prod…

> Europa has a GDP on par with the USA. Nearly double per capita. That's not "on par", that's miles away. > gas insulated HV switchgear Air is a gas ;) How much if this has to do with most lines in Europe going underground because high housing density? I know for many power outages are unheard of, while for some are normal. People don't realize that in suburbs or exurbs that are popular in US power lines are simply o…

I don’t know the ratio, cables vs overhead lines, but overhead lines are very common in Europe as well.

I deliberately didn’t use GDP per capita as it’s a flawed measurement.

Have a look at these lists, not many US cities qualify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_quality_of_life_indices

So you can take your GDP per capita, that’s skewed to the rich anyway, and I’ll take my happiness.

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