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Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

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Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> time, to accept the retardation, as a permanent fixture. Every 3 generations Why? Previous generations didn’t have to accept this. This is entirely a product of ad-fueled social media.

Go look up how people reacted to the Spanish flu. Or various religious death cults that pop up with regularity. This isn’t a modern thing - most people rely on their social network about what is true and those social networks can be infected with cultural disease and rot and die just like the body. The problem is that cultural diseases have impacts to the entire species since we’re social creatures and technology has…

> Go look up how people reacted to the Spanish flu

“The Anti-Mask League was an organization formed in San Francisco, California, United States to protest an ordinance which required people in that city to wear masks during the 1918 influenza pandemic. The ordinance it protested lasted less than one month before being repealed. Due to the short period of the league's existence, its exact membership is difficult to determine; however, an estimated 4,500 citizens showed up to a meeting to protest the second ordinance in January 1919” [1].

I’m not seeing anything comparable, or as epidimeogically relevant, as what we have today. Organic social spread is slow and controllable. Online social media is instant wildfire everywhere.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Mask_League_of_San_Franci...

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a fantastic web series that explains the whole dynamic: the alt-right playbook. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbAN...

It’s reductive to frame this as an alt-right only phenomenon. As long as we’re subject to modern ad-fueled social media, this is the basis for all non-retail politics.

The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements because it’s facing different pressures.

Right now it’s dealing with second generation propaganda where much of the leadership believes the narrative rather than the underlying justification for that narrative. This is mitigating by the older generation retaining a great deal of power, but it creates some IMO really interesting dynamics.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#93
post #62
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with Isaac Asimov on that point. The reason is that professors and universities have failed to communicate that knowledge persuasively to the public. In other words, it's establishment science. They ignore opinions that oppose corporations, and they give grants to research that suits corporate tastes. This pattern keeps appearing in the United States. So it seems that public experience and word of mouth ha…

The Scopes trial? What was "corporate" about evolution? The Salem witch trials. McCarthyism And "Universities" are the mouthpieces of corporations? The people keep electing politicians who are anti-worker-protection laws. They're purposely choosing corporation-owner-friendly legislators. This is not the fault of universities. Of course it's a complicated issue, but it's not my University friends doing public outreach…

However, in the essence of your argument, I sometimes sense a hint of elitism. Your logic is very solid and rational. If I entered your area of expertise, I probably wouldn't even be able to engage with you on any logical level. And I'm not trying to win an argument in the first place, but I don't think you should frame things as 'the public was ignorant' using the witch trials as a pretext.

We all become 'the public' in some context.

Were the witch trials really a problem of the public? The church and judicial authorities monopolized the knowledge of the Bible and used it as a tool to maintain ruling order. Couldn't there be a perspective that sees it the other way around, that the elites used the public as a tool instead? When you study medieval European history, education was handled by the church. The authority to identify 'witches' ultimately rested with the church, and that actually makes me think that the public was the educated one.

Regarding the Scopes Trial, frankly, I don't know much about it. So I can't offer a lengthy rebuttal. I can't casually criticize something I don't know about.

But I think your comment shows how the problem of stratification that we're thinking about actually applies

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Biology in particular but also chemistry is often taught with rote memorization I’m guessing with high confidence none of the parents who are busy getting their kids sick got even this.

It may be a correlation - I don’t have data - but I have some experience with ivy educated adults rejecting modern medicine and science with scorn for the perceived arrogance of doctors and scientists.

> I have some experience with ivy educated adults rejecting modern medicine

Could they answer basic, and by basic I mean high-school level, chemistry or biology questions? (More pointedly, were they admitted in the free and clear, or are they legacy?)

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#95

Around 20% of people have a fear of needles. Around 4% have a clinical phobia, often intense enough to induce fainting. I suspect a lot of "vaccine skepticism" is just an expression of such needle phobia. Maybe developing more needle free vaccine delivery mechanisms would solve a lot of this problem. I have much doubt about arguing people out of phobias.

It's not. It's scientific ignorance combined with lies (Wakefield) and misinformation. There may be some small percentage of people who completely avoid injections but most people who understand vaccines accept the benefits outweigh the short term fear / pain of needles.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#96
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal theory is that many responsible for teaching science in the K-12 grades are not doing a great job of communicating that science is a process for finding truth. Definitely not laying this at teachers’ feet - standardized testing and curricula, overcrowded classrooms, underfunded schools etc all contribute I’m sure, but I get the impression from talking to even well educated people that they were taught sci…

I deeply agree with your statement. In fact, I think science teaches a specific methodology and a specific mental model for viewing the world. However, the scientific method is a shareable verification procedure, whereas scientists' mental models are fragmented depending on individuals or schools of thought. So I think modern science is a collection of elaborately designed mental models for interpreting phenomena. Th…

this is a huge point of frustration to me. the anti-science populist is resentful that science has claimed the mantle of authority to decide what is right. but all of the scientists I know personally, while they have a massive background context about phenomenon aren't claiming any such thing. they are struggling with methodological problems and just hoping to get an interesting glimpse about what's actually going on and show others. its basically forbidden in all the fields to use the word truth with a capital 'T'. I'm sure there are purely political and excessively egoistic scientists. but for the majority their relationship with the polity has been captured and twisted by .. I guess parasites?

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#97
post #14

Why do problems caused by anti scientific behavior occur in a country like the United States, which has so many outstanding scientists? From a third party perspective, I wonder if it's because, as stratification has progressed in the US, distrust of the social class that scientists belong to has led people to deny even their achievements. Why does distrust arise toward the institutions and hierarchies that speak for…

In Europe we actively pushed the crazies to emigrate to the US. We had so many crazy religious people that we got tired of them. They went to the US and we thought we got rid of them, but now they are back with a vengeance.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The World Cup already started. But there are no games played in Utah For now, Utahns can travel freely to US states where World Cup games are played.

The Olympics happen every two years and aren't the cause of such issues. I doubt the World Cup will be any different.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/org/science/article/pii/S23692...

It was enough of a concern before the most contagious virus resurfaced (measles) that researchers have been looking at sporting events as mass vector events for years.

"The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) via DHS provided $625 million in grant funding to the 11 U.S. cities in hosting states to enhance security and preparedness efforts for the “safe execution” of tournament events"

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antimicrobial-stewar...

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#99
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s reductive to frame this as an alt-right only phenomenon. As long as we’re subject to modern ad-fueled social media, this is the basis for all non-retail politics.

The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements because it’s facing different pressures. Right now it’s dealing with second generation propaganda where much of the leadership believes the narrative rather than the underlying justification for that narrative. This is mitigating by the older generation retaining a great deal of power, but it creates some IMO really interesting dynamics.

> The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements

Straw man. Nobody claimed this. Just that the factor identified, politics by attention economics as a result of social media, is not unique to the alt right.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#100
post #14

Why do problems caused by anti scientific behavior occur in a country like the United States, which has so many outstanding scientists? From a third party perspective, I wonder if it's because, as stratification has progressed in the US, distrust of the social class that scientists belong to has led people to deny even their achievements. Why does distrust arise toward the institutions and hierarchies that speak for…

My personal theory is that many responsible for teaching science in the K-12 grades are not doing a great job of communicating that science is a process for finding truth. Definitely not laying this at teachers’ feet - standardized testing and curricula, overcrowded classrooms, underfunded schools etc all contribute I’m sure, but I get the impression from talking to even well educated people that they were taught sci…

We don't pay teachers enough to entice people who are really good at science to teach at the K-12 level. There are some who do of course, but to make it a viable career choice for a talented person, we just need to pay better salaries (and vastly improve working conditions)
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