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Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

cleantechnica.com

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Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#91

Post by ctkhn »

tapoxi wrote: post #23

I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. So far it's covered about 70% of my usage and 5.7 Mwh. I don't have a full year of data yet so I expect that number to grow as it includes the summer months. I drive an EV and this includes the car.

Not sure what the actual cost was, but in 2015 my parents got a solar system in California that covers the entire house plus an EV. I remember looking at the time to payoff and I think it took maybe five years, now day to day power and all their driving is essentially free.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#92

Post by ben_w »

have_faith wrote: post #60
ifjfkfkfkfj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah more dependency on china! Nothing to backfire, no Chinese influence at all!

China might produce the most panels at volume but this isn't a hardline monopoly like being able to cut off oil pipelines. We can produce panels ourselves if we _need_ to (as a coalition of friendly countries), it will of course be more expensive, but expensive is better than not possible. Also, the more panels we already have, the less reliant we are. Energy doesn't stop flowing because deliveries of new panels stop…

> Also, the more panels we already have, the less reliant we are. Energy doesn't stop flowing because deliveries of new panels stop during a conflict. You just pause expansion. A very different scenario to fuel reserves running dry in weeks.

If someone is genuinely worried about China cutting off their power, the fact my very cheap solar inverter came with an app should probably be a consideration here.

I'm not saying the Chinese did put a kill switch into it, but I am saying that we all know what Snowden reported about the US, and given that it really wouldn't be a surprise.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#93

Post by ben_w »

cubefox wrote: post #81
Tade0 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly because they still use coal, which is heavily taxed under the emissions trading scheme and partly because of the way electricity auctions work in most of Europe, namely every participant sells at the price offered by the highest bidder. Spain opted out of this system and is now enjoying cheap wholesale electricity, which is fueling an industrial revival.

> Partly because they still use coal, which is heavily taxed under the emissions trading scheme ... and solar is heavily subsidized, which could outweigh this effect. So this doesn't explain the high energy prices. > partly because of the way electricity auctions work in most of Europe, namely every participant sells at the price offered by the highest bidder. This doesn't explain why Germany has so high electricity…

> This doesn't explain why Germany has so high electricity prices.

It's the main thing which does.

Say you have two energy sources, Alice Electric can deliver at €0.03/kWh but only up to 10% of your demand, while Bob Energy can deliver 200% of your demand but all units will cost €0.5/kWh.

The net result of the electricity auction, as described, is that the consumers pay Alice and Bob €0.5/kWh each, which gives Alice a €0.47/kWh profit margin and therefore lot of money to expand operations if she wants to, but until she can actually supply 100% of demand, it's priced by what Bob charges.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#94

Post by nonethewiser »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #66

The title is misleading. $135 is not "money saved", it's "money not spent on fossil fuels" (even for that I couldn't find how it was calculated by solarpowereurope, but the number seems plausible). To the discussion of whether $50B/y is a big figure or not. EU has around 400GW of PV installed. Cost to install per 1kW ranged between $600 and up to $4000 because a big chunk of that capacity was built when prices were m…

Cleantechnica is a solar advocacy group and they consistently frame things in misleading ways like this.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#95

Post by nonethewiser »

ctkhn wrote: post #91
tapoxi wrote: post #23

I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. So far it's covered about 70% of my usage and 5.7 Mwh. I don't have a full year of data yet so I expect that number to grow as it includes the summer months. I drive an EV and this includes the car.

Not sure what the actual cost was, but in 2015 my parents got a solar system in California that covers the entire house plus an EV. I remember looking at the time to payoff and I think it took maybe five years, now day to day power and all their driving is essentially free.

What about without subsidies?

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#96

Post by polairscience »

complianceowll wrote: post #88
polairscience wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you own a home you should genuinely spend time calculating and thinking about it. It's not near as far fetched as you think. You can benefit from the same technical advancements in engineering and manufacturing that have benefited every single industrial sector. It has never been easier. The number of plug and play components out there is unreal. These days it's very much sun-legos. You decide what you can afford…

I 100% believe you! We're planning on doing a custom build for our next home, and I'm going to budget for solar. Like you said, it's gotten so much easier these days and I think that we don't take advantage of this because it requires budgeting/saving and because paying a monthly bill can be so much easier in the short-term. But I'm 100% going to do this.

Great, it's a life changing thing being fully independent of external chaos. If you are able to DIY it pays back in less than 5 years.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#97

Post by ramesh31 »

toast0 wrote: post #90
ramesh31 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do you need to assume 100% generation For the time to payback to be even remotely close to 5 years in that scenario. Otherwise you're easily talking a decade plus.

I don't get it... system costs scale pretty closely with number of panels. If a $X system covers 100% of your use, a $X/2 system probably covers 50% of your use. Ignoring time value of money, if the $X system saves you $X / 5 per year, the $X / 2 system that generates 50% will save you $X / 10 per year. Both systems would have a 5 year ROI. Even if your half price system generates only 45%, it only brings the ROI out…

>"Ignoring time value of money"

The time value of money is the entire point of what I've said.

And it goes up exponentially when you are just getting by as most of us are. $17k right now is worth incredibly more to me than saving $200/month for the next 20 years.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#98

Post by ndhbxyd »

sfn42 wrote: post #35
ndhbxyd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will happen when we have better weather forecasting models. If it gets randomly cloudy for 5 days this month and 17 days next months screws up planning for factories, farms, datacenters etc.

Across a large enough area it's always sunny somewhere. And clouds don't interfere as much as you'd think. Add in wind, hydro, nuclear and some gas and you can handle pretty much anything just fine.

That has nothing to do with where factories, mines, farms etc are already located. You have to buy land to connect the power plant to the load and some guy in the middle wont sell. Handle congestion/maintenance of those lines etc. Lots of issues beyond just generation that the grid already is dealung with even though massive solar plants have been built. But main thing is weather forecasting has to get better because even with existing huge plants constant surprises happen.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#99

Post by Garlef »

cubefox wrote: post #47

This seems highly doubtful. If solar saves money, why does Germany (with a lot of solar) have higher rather than lower energy prices?

Er... No?

Electricity prices in Germany are lower than last year.

https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/energiemonitor-strompreis-gas...

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#100

Post by Analemma_ »

cubefox wrote: post #47

This seems highly doubtful. If solar saves money, why does Germany (with a lot of solar) have higher rather than lower energy prices?

The price of electricity is set by the marginal cost of the most expensive individual source - if your grid is 80% solar, 20% coal, the price you pay is the price of coal, because the solar providers can increase their prices to just below that of coal. Obviously I'm simplifying somewhat, but that's the general dynamic.

This is "by design" in the sense that it offers big subsidies to more solar generation to come online, but you won't see the biggest price cuts until the last expensive sources are pushed off the grid entirely. Because Germany's marginal source is coal, they pay way more than countries whose marginal source is gas or nuclear.

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