Live data from Hacker News

Apple Core AI Framework

developer.apple.com

91–100 of 114 posts

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#91

This is why the AI companies are rushing to IPO. By the end of next year you’ll be running most of your AI on device. They have no moat, they’ve reached the limits of scaling, most of the magic can be distilled into smaller models, and they know it

Very false. I use small models exclusively. They aren't a replacement for large models. You need decent hardware to run those models efficiently, as smaller parameter models plain suck and are still slow on macbooks. And affordability of higher end hardware is very limited. Even at non VC subsidized $/token prices, its still much cheaper to run cloud based models.

Just need a decent Mac Studio and they are plentiful in used condition and affordable.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#92
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to echo this. I've been on claude's opus 4.5/6/7 for work for a couple months, and I finally got back to running Qwen A3B 35B... it's incredibly performant and quite capable on semi-reasonable local hardware. I get ~150 tokens/s on dual nvidia RTX 3090s and can fit the whole 300k context into gpu on a UD-Q4-K-XL quant gguf. Combined with Pi as a harness, and I'm surprised to find that it feels about as capable…

Majority of my agentic setup is pi / Claude code where every single Chinese models are not as good except commercial 1T models . Local is a pipe dream . If you can run it cheap occasionally why commercial companies can’t run it cheaper 24/7 and lower the costs ? The answer is simple. Use cases are more demanding and hence you need more from model not less . Sure if you task is to do a narrow labeling task on 1m recor…

Because I have a fixed expenditure on my local machine, and I can be absolutely sure of the costs over a long horizon (5+ years, for low end hardware life, 10+ years with moderate care). Not something that's true for cloud costs.

Your argument is actually really similar to an argument around the time Uber started kicking into gear and expanding.

It went:

---

"Why should I own a car when it's actually cheaper to just Uber for all my rides, compared to the cost of buying, maintaining, and insuring a car?"

---

And that wasn't an insane argument at that exact moment. Uber was pricing itself in the range of $5-$7 a ride, was novel and high quality.

Except take a look around today... Uber in my area went from ~$5 a ride to ~$27 a ride for the same trip. Uber's quality has also degraded quite a bit. It went from primarily high end, new cars with immaculately clean interiors to "average".

So want to make a wager on what's going to happen with cloud costs over the next decade for inference?

Because my strong hunch is they're going to follow exactly the same trend. They will stop being subsidized, providers WILL downgrade model quality to improve operating costs (and you'll have no control over this outside of enterprise contracts), and companies will start exploring "additional revenue options"... which means they'll shove ads and sponsored content into your results.

Is it worth being ~10-18 months behind the latest and greatest to avoid that entire set of shenanigans? I'd vote yes... I pay one time up front, and get usage limited by my hardware for the cost of electricity over a 10 year timeline. That's a decent deal with no surprises.

You're welcome to rent, but renting makes you subject to the whims of the owners. They're being very nice right now to attract all the flies. That's not a mistake, and it's absolutely a trap.

---

Side note - if you're only able to do labeling tasks with a local model... you're holding something very, very wrong.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#93
post #27

AI future is clearly local, and my recent pitch has been "infinite tokens." Because that's what my M1 MBP can do; and that's what my RTX3090 can do. I don't need to pay hundreds of dollars a month and no one else does either.

In the 80s we thought that the future of computing was clearly local, home computers, PCs, Macs, the office server (Novell, then Windows NT with disk shares) etc. Add 40 years and we are back to a centralized infrastructure with the modern equivalent of smart terminals.

The AI future will be clearly... what it will be. Probably bouncing back and forth from local to centralized. However, if there are money to be made by selling things that people run locally, it seems that centralizing creates more power and hence more money.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#94
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My computer is 15,000 times faster and costs in inflation adjusted dollars half that of my computer in 1995. There's zero reason to think that won't happen over the next 30 years again. For whatever reason every generations thinks they are the peak. Naw man. You're just a blip at the bottom of the logarithmic chart.

It has slowed down massively for CPUs at least. e.g. modern CPUs are hardly more than 3-5x faster than those from 10 years ago. There is zero reason to think won’t happen over the next 10 years again.

This isn't an crazy statement (cpu performance metrics have mostly stalled their meteoric rise from prior to the 2000s)

But it also doesn't capture the entire picture.

CPU metrics mostly stalled for two reasons.

1. There wasn't much demand for the extra capacity. Even low end cpus from a decade ago are plenty capable for just browsing the web and typing up documents. It takes a novel use-case to drive demand again (or a desire to do things like play new games).

2. The interest in CPU development shifted in response to mobile. Given point #1 and the state of battery development.... the blocker wasn't "performance". It was "performance per watt". And on that metric you couldn't be more wrong.

Since ~2005, MIPS per watt has improved 15x to 30x.

Also - fun news is that the traditional CPU pipeline really isn't the bottleneck for AI workloads. So we're going to see incredible interest in things like memory bandwidth and other inference related hardware bottlenecks, which haven't already been optimized.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#95
post #7

i am more excited about the ondevice foundation model update that is coming https://developer.apple.com/documentation/updates/foundation... (not much info yet) but i maintain https://github.com/Arthur-Ficial/apfel so i might be biased

Thanks apfel looks useful! I have been experimenting with Apple's foundation models for almost a year and they are useful for embedded applications. I have been taking a deeper dive into local agentic coding tools (starting with 'little-coder --model ollama/gemma4:12b-it-qat') and I put together a tiny free book with some setup advice that might save people a few minutes of setup time: https://leanpub.com/read/local-coding-agents

I have been fairly much pissed off at the "hype in hyperscaler" AI growth (data center environmental and other societal costs) and I support anything we can do to promote local and private AI.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#96
post #7

i am more excited about the ondevice foundation model update that is coming https://developer.apple.com/documentation/updates/foundation... (not much info yet) but i maintain https://github.com/Arthur-Ficial/apfel so i might be biased

Agreed. The idea of a system wide (and platform wide) on device model being a core part of OS APIs is very appealing. I do like my software more piecemeal, generally, but when it comes to Apple, I really love a lot of the out-of-the-box offerings they have. Just giving software access to something they know exists on these platforms and can use for various small (and likely increasingly large) gen AI tasks is so appealing.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#97
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requires OS 27+, so CoreML is still useful for backwards compatibility.

macOS users aren't that good at upgrading regularly, but iOS users are at least obsessive about upgrading to the latest OS. I guess the system almost forces us.

The workaround my friend uses (unintentionally) is being completely out of storage on her phone.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#98
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have come at this at a slightly different angle. I am a fully-burned-out freelancer (in the last couple of years so severely and totally that I thought I had early onset dementia, and I am still not sure I don't). I don't really have an off-ramp to anything else yet, but the sea-change in the industry has been contributing to my feeling that I should knock it on the head. I must get past broad understanding of AI t…

How are you running that GGUF, and how many tokens/sec are you getting without MTP? My M1 Max gives me 65 t/s for non-MTP unsloth/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-qat-GGUF (UD-Q4_K_XL), but with MTP that actually goes down to 56 t/s (at 63% accepted drafts).

Just this guy's assistant running against the official Q4_0 GGUF:

  ./llama-server \     
    -hf google/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-qat-q4_0-gguf \
    --spec-draft-hf RachidAR/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-qat-assistant-q4_0-gguf:Q4_0 \
    --spec-type draft-mtp \
    --spec-draft-n-max 3
I hadn't done any really radical testing so I've just had another look.

Without the MTP drafter, it is pretty consistently 75 tokens per second anyway, which is interesting.

With the MTP drafter it reaches well above 95 tokens per second handling the prompt and it will slowly drop to 65 or so with the output tokens as the prediction success rate slowly drops.

But with generated output it seems to me that the predictions are always going to drop dramatically over time.

I think my results here are broadly consistent with what people say about success rates with smaller and sparse models. I am going to test with n-max 4 in agentic situations at some point, and I may see whether it has much impact on the 31B model which is too slow to be practical otherwise.

I have a very unqualified feeling that MTP will matter more in agentic coding because of the larger prompts.

But my biggest issue since I installed it, I think, is that the combination is occasionally messing with markdown generation during thinking, and sometimes possibly losing the at the end. I've seen it enough now to be fairly sure it is the Gemma MTP causing it. There is an open bug in the vLLM project about this and I wonder if something similar is going on in llama.cpp.

The speed without the MTP drafter is pretty solid so I am content to let more experienced people than me handle things while I learn other stuff, but I might go looking for some testing code that can prove it sometime.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#99
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has slowed down massively for CPUs at least. e.g. modern CPUs are hardly more than 3-5x faster than those from 10 years ago. There is zero reason to think won’t happen over the next 10 years again.

This isn't an crazy statement (cpu performance metrics have mostly stalled their meteoric rise from prior to the 2000s) But it also doesn't capture the entire picture. CPU metrics mostly stalled for two reasons. 1. There wasn't much demand for the extra capacity. Even low end cpus from a decade ago are plenty capable for just browsing the web and typing up documents. It takes a novel use-case to drive demand again (o…

> There wasn't much demand for the extra capacity. Even low end cpus from a decade ago are plenty capable for just browsing the web and typing up documents.

It stalled before the rise of PC-as-Internet-portal.

I bought a high end PC in 2003, and 5 years later the PCs were not much faster - probably not even 2x. Around 2008-2010 was when most people started using PCs as a way to connect to the Internet.

It stalled because scaling got a lot more challenging. Not because of lack of demand.

Re: Apple Core AI Framework

#100
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems they planning to replace it but overall now I'm really confused about this and mlx and coremltools. They should do better work explaining the benefits (and cons) of it and any feature parity between coreai, coreml and mlx.

My reading of it is: - Core ML is for models designed only for Apple platforms - MLX is for models that don't need to be fast - Core AI is for models that run everywhere already and also need to be fast

This view is a bit off. First, keep in mind that MLX was and will not be able to access the ANE, so it's a total non-starter for anything user-facing. Based on updates to coreml docs, they're trying to sell CoreML as the tool for tabular or domain-specific applications and CoreAI for NNs moving forward.
Post reply on HN