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British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

uk.reuters.com

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Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's why Elon Musk is more likely to be right: because fuel is cheap. The cost of fuel and the cost of fuel tanks is an insignificant part of the cost of an orbital launch, around the 1% level. The major drivers of cost are overall system complexity and manufacturing cost of the engines. And here's the big problem for a Skylon spaceplane, rockets are fairly simple systems whereas hypersonic airbreathing engines are…

In the SABRE design you can pick whatever transition point you like to move from air breathing to pure rocket operation.

Certainly, but if they pick a flight profile similar to modern rocket powered launch vehicles the advantages of the engine almost entirely evaporate. In order for the engine to be worthwhile the vehicle needs to spend a lot more time in the troposphere and lower stratosphere than any other launch vehicle, and that gives rise to all the problems I described.

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#92
post #19

Does anyone have guesses on how the heat exchanger might work to prevent frost? Perhaps ultrasound?

My first thought was a metamaterial.

Something like this, I suspect: http://www.sharklet.com/technology/

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#93

The problem with these advanced technologies is two fold 1. it requires a large amount of hydrogen - which is not heavy so it looks good on paper but is very cold and voluminous, meaning you need huge insulated tanks. They are expensive to build, have bad mass fraction and are aerodynamically problematic. Hydrogen is also expensive to handle in systems and infrastructure. 2. the dry mass of an air breathing engine su…

That was my first thought - Hydrogen has low energy density, even in frozen form. That is the thing that holds Hydrogen cars back more than anything else - tiny range for massive (and costly, and complex) fuel tanks. The same would have to apply to both airplane and rocket designs.

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#94
post #76

I don't see where this technology "fits". When you're going to orbit, 90% of the flight takes place outside the atmosphere, so an air-breathing engine doesn't do much for you. For commercial sub-orbital hops, they'll have to bring the cost down considerably to compete with existing air service. Sure, we'd all love to be able to go from NYC to Frankfurt in an hour. But how many people will pay ten thousand dollars for…

Given that people already spend multiples of ten thousand dollars to fly it in greater comfort at "normal" speeds, I suspect there is already a significant market.

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#95
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skylon would basically use the cryogenic fuel as a giant internal heat sink. A more fanciful application of the concept: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StealthInSpace

How is this different to HOTOL ?

Similar concept, different design.

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the SABRE design you can pick whatever transition point you like to move from air breathing to pure rocket operation.

Certainly, but if they pick a flight profile similar to modern rocket powered launch vehicles the advantages of the engine almost entirely evaporate. In order for the engine to be worthwhile the vehicle needs to spend a lot more time in the troposphere and lower stratosphere than any other launch vehicle, and that gives rise to all the problems I described.

Your requirement that they follow a rocket flight path is arbitrary. They'll use the best profile for the technology.

You're also underestimating how hard rockets work while still in the atmosphere. For example, the shuttles SRB work entirely within the troposphere and stratosphere. They're about a million pounds of propellant each, and together they make up 70% of the shuttles lift off weight. If you eliminated the need for the oxidizer in the SRBs, you'd save nearly half the entire weight of the shuttle. Because of the non-linearity of the rocket equation, saving weight produces compounding advantage, so this would be huge.

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, but if they pick a flight profile similar to modern rocket powered launch vehicles the advantages of the engine almost entirely evaporate. In order for the engine to be worthwhile the vehicle needs to spend a lot more time in the troposphere and lower stratosphere than any other launch vehicle, and that gives rise to all the problems I described.

Your requirement that they follow a rocket flight path is arbitrary. They'll use the best profile for the technology. You're also underestimating how hard rockets work while still in the atmosphere. For example, the shuttles SRB work entirely within the troposphere and stratosphere. They're about a million pounds of propellant each, and together they make up 70% of the shuttles lift off weight. If you eliminated the…

I think you're misreading what I'm saying, let me see if I can be more clear.

The key goal of an orbital launch vehicle is generating the necessary speed for orbit (over 8,000 m/s, around mach 25). The difficulty of reaching the altitude of low Earth orbit is inconsequential in comparison. A rocket has the advantage that it can do its accelerating wherever it's more convenient, so the typical flight profile is first up and then over, because it's a hell of a lot easier to accelerate and travel at high speeds above most of the atmosphere. For example, the Falcon 9 reaches an altitude of 5km before it even goes supersonic, and will reach an altitude of 30km within the first 2 minutes of launch.

An airbreathing engine however needs to stick around in dense enough atmosphere for its engines to work. And if a vehicle relies on a significant amount of airbreathing then it needs to spend a significant amount of time in that denser atmosphere. And that means that it needs to do more of its accelerating in denser air, which means that it will encounter higher aerodynamic forces, higher drag, more heat issues, a higher max-Q, etc. Those sorts of forces tend to be the "long poles" that aerospace vehicles are designed around, it dictates everything from the materials used to the type of construction to the service life of the vehicle's frame, etc. This is something that positively cannot be avoided for an airbreathing vehicle.

Sure, the SRBs generate a ton of thrust on the Shuttle, but they also help push the Shuttle quickly to higher altitudes and lower air pressure. Before the Shuttle hits mach 2.5 (of 25) it is already at an altitude where atmospheric pressure is 1% of sea level.

As I said before, mass isn't the big driver of cost in orbital launch vehicles, cost comes from complexity which comes from operational complexity (flight profile, staging, etc.) and design complexity (engines, control systems, handling, etc.) A vehicle which saves fuel but increases operational complexity is not a cheap vehicle. Fuel costs around $1,000 a tonne, whereas an engine can easily cost $10,000 / kg.

The biggest win that a vehicle like Skylon would have initially is that it might make it easier to make reusable launchers. If that's the case then even an expensive launcher which can be reused only a handful of times might still be useful in reducing overall launch costs. But if an entirely rocket based vehicle can be made to be reusable then it's very unlikely to have better overall economics or operating characteristics, for all of the reasons I've listed previously.

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your requirement that they follow a rocket flight path is arbitrary. They'll use the best profile for the technology. You're also underestimating how hard rockets work while still in the atmosphere. For example, the shuttles SRB work entirely within the troposphere and stratosphere. They're about a million pounds of propellant each, and together they make up 70% of the shuttles lift off weight. If you eliminated the…

I think you're misreading what I'm saying, let me see if I can be more clear. The key goal of an orbital launch vehicle is generating the necessary speed for orbit (over 8,000 m/s, around mach 25). The difficulty of reaching the altitude of low Earth orbit is inconsequential in comparison. A rocket has the advantage that it can do its accelerating wherever it's more convenient, so the typical flight profile is first…

I think we're mostly in agreement now, just we disagree on our guesses of benefits vs risks.

The key point seems to be the complexity penalty of adding airbreathing to the engine vs the weight savings of less reaction mass. If we're comparing reusable apples to apples, this is really the value proposition. I'm clearly more optimistic on this point.

Also any engine that uses ram effect becomes more efficient at higher speeds. The SR71 uses less fuel per unit of distance the faster it goes, which is a bit counterintuitive. How big a benefit this is for space launch I can't really guesstimate but it's probably minor.

Reaction mass savings means more than just oxidizer material cost though. It ripples through the whole design. There aren't many times when the mass fraction of a rocket is working for you instead of against you.

I think we skipped over that a horizontal takeoff requires a lot less launch infrastructure. But being smart with rockets and launching from a barge in the ocean can equalize things.

As a summary, I think you and Elon may be right about Skylon for space launch. Mass produced rockets can get pretty cheap, and SpaceX does aspire to full reusability.

But space launch is only one of the two applications of a design like Skylon. Nothing SpaceX develops will be used for terrestrial transport. You aren't going to take a rocket to visit your family for the holidays, so Skylon may find a market there.

Skylon also could be used as a WhiteKnight style carrier for a more traditional second stage, which might still be interesting for space launch, but I'm pessimistic on this point because I think if the numbers worked the air force would already be using such systems instead of Deltas.

Skylon can also hedge that their high flow flash chiller is useful in other applications, and apparently they've developed an interesting high temperature composite material.

So on the whole I think it's interesting to watch what happens to them, even if it's not a sure bet.

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#99
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Englishman, I parsed the title the same way as you did, though I did wonder if it meant BA.

BA is British Airways. BAE Systems is the new name for what used to be British Aerospace, which used BAe as its abbreviation, to avoid confusion with BA. I don't know why it bothers me, but I really dislike the used-to-be-an-acronym-but-not-any-more names. For example SRI (not affiliated with Stanford so the S doesn't mean that any more), and my least favourite "HRL Laboratories" which we have to pretend does not exp…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAS_syndrome

Re: British aerospace company claims biggest engine advance since the jet

#100
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so only for launches to orbit Isn't that our biggest challenge right now? I like how dismissive you are of it, like we have somehow overcome that and are now on our way to Mars any day now. If someone was able to reduce the cost of going into orbit by as little as 10% that would be a MASSIVE achievement. Getting out of the atmosphere is still a massively costly, logistical, and dangerous challenge.

But you don't reduce the cost of going into orbit by 10%. Not even in the absurdly best case. Let us take Elon at his word that increasing the size of the booster stage by 5-10% can replace these engines entirely, and assume that it actually is 10%. The booster stage is mostly fuel, which varies as volume, but the costs are all in the metal part, which scales as area. So this size increase costs you at most 6.6%. It…

A tank's weight is proportional to volume, not surface area, assuming equal pressure and material strength.

Also, you often can't just simply stretch tanks - you need to increase thrust. Otherwise your payload drops because of lower T/W and more gravity losses in early flight.

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