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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

latimes.com

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#91

Post by lokar »

scarmig wrote: post #74
lokar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is as never the tests. It was pretending that the difference between a 600 and 625 (or whatever) really predicted anything. It was the silly idea that with tests you could produce a fair ordering of students based on potential to succeed.

You can absolutely make a bet on who's more likely to succeed based on a 100 point difference, though. It's not absolute, but it's highly predictive. And the reason the SAT was dropped wasn't because admissions were being forced to blindly accept 620 over 610 (they never were), but so that people who scored hundreds of points below the mean could be admitted (in the pursuit of other institutional goals).

We have decades of data (test score vs grades and degree completion). They should gather it up and calculate the answers.

Flip answer: the bucket width should be 2.5 times the score improved of a prep course.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#92

Post by lokar »

raincole wrote: post #60
lokar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is as never the tests. It was pretending that the difference between a 600 and 625 (or whatever) really predicted anything. It was the silly idea that with tests you could produce a fair ordering of students based on potential to succeed.

Any working system has to rely on some arbitrary rules. Drawing a line between students who scored 600 and 625 is still infinitely better than drawing it based on the decision-makers' moods.

Or, treat 600-625 as a tie, and use a lottery.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#93

Post by rdtsc »

What did they expect to happen? Is it one of those things when they say "They may be a professor but they can't tie their shoes!". Surely, they should have seen it coming.

I see quotes from faculty there about this being "unexpected", like "the bottom dropped out". Are they just pretending to be surprised or actually surprised...

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#94

Post by SoftTalker »

Ekaros wrote: post #81
ceejayoz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professors who fail large swathes of their classes get in trouble.

Also these are most likely the first classes. You can not block most of your entering cohort. Or even any way significant part. At least in the system these professors exist in. In some other systems like say German where getting in easy and getting rid of some is normal would be different.

This shouldn't be a hard problem to solve. At the state university I'm most familiar with, every incoming Freshman takes a math assessment test. If they don't pass it, they have to take remedial coursework (which does not count towards their degree requirements).

And yes, every student takes it, even the ones with high school AP math and high SAT math scores. The only exception might be if they have already completed and passed actual accredited university math courses for credit.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#95

Post by lokar »

jpadkins wrote: post #56
lokar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is as never the tests. It was pretending that the difference between a 600 and 625 (or whatever) really predicted anything. It was the silly idea that with tests you could produce a fair ordering of students based on potential to succeed.

who uses SAT scores as "potential succeed"??

The original argument for standardized tests was to pick based on how well you would do in university (vs who your parents know).

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#96

Post by bigstrat2003 »

collabs wrote: post #38
kleiba2 wrote: post #28

I used to teach high school math. There was a big push for doing everything digitally. And admittedly, for some topics the use of technology in the classroom or at home can really be a benefit, for instance visualizations or interactive exercises. But having a digital device in class was the number one cause of distraction every time. For a lot of things, good old blackboards are just fine as are pen + paper exercise…

I am thinking why not use the iPad simply as a letter pad with infinite pages? the new iPad with the new iPad pencil can do that and I am sure with the right software you can write, erase, rewrite as much as you want? What am I missing?

The point is that it's foolish to require inserting an iPad into the classroom purely for the sake of using an iPad. The goal (or proposed benefit) should be identified first, and then decide what the best tools to achieve that are.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#97

Post by lokar »

chaostheory wrote: post #70
lokar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is as never the tests. It was pretending that the difference between a 600 and 625 (or whatever) really predicted anything. It was the silly idea that with tests you could produce a fair ordering of students based on potential to succeed.

As imperfect standardized tests are, they are still more fair and less biased than using arbitrary judgement on extra curriculars

Bucket to the observed predictive power of the score, resolve ties with a lottery .

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#98

Post by throwway120385 »

ptek wrote: post #69
irishcoffee wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just use a pencil and paper, and it's a lot cheaper?

Yes it is cheaper and who will steal or rob a student of pencil and paper compared to a iPad also pencil and paper doesn’t require age verification.

It's also probably good to make sure students know how to figure using a pencil and paper because pulling a calculator out on a job site is pretty impractical.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#99

Post by jeffbee »

ceejayoz wrote: post #90
jeffbee wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, as of about a year ago, take official SAT practice exams for free in Google Gemini.

SAT prep is much more than just taking practice exams.

The person to whom I responded seemed to imply that it consists chiefly or entirely of taking practice exams. I merely wish to point out that if you want your kid to take SAT practice exams every month you can do it for free at home.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#100

Post by mc32 »

hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

The results were predictable and predicted but politicians, state and local went whole hog on equity. That along with NCLB results on this catastrophe. We’re finally seeing some needed pushback. You can’t just hand out As to everyone and pass everyone as it’s a kindergarten assignment and then expect excellence. You’re teaching people who will become adults and you’re shortchanging them on skills if you don’t require proficiency. It’s also unfair to apt students who put in the time to learn and do well.

I can’t believe they actually went so far as to dismantle the little haven for achievement that was Lowell high school in SF by getting rid of GPA and entrance exams for a few years. Eventually furious alumni got that idiocy overturned but it should have never happened.

We’re also seeing higher ed address grade inflation by capping As at some institutions of renown.

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