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McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

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Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#91

Post by ZoFreX »

nlh wrote: post #12

I find reading articles like this exhausting. I've got to imagine being a criminal/sketchball while on the road in whatever country you're in is equally exhausting. Is it not just possible to travel abroad, carry proper documentation, a bit of cash, and enjoy yourself? Does every situation really require constant vigilance to knowing when to run or not, how to make eye-contact, when to make excuses, etc.? Perhaps I'm…

Honestly apart from a couple of times where the police were being extra aggressive, we found it fun. We just got used to it and it became a bit of a game - "this time, let's pretend none of us speak any language except German!"

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#92

Post by andrewcooke »

jacquesm wrote: post #77
vl wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Because Chile is working very hard on improving their police force and not reporting an attempted bribe can get a police man there into serious trouble. Really, don't do it. It's a lose-lose situation. Either you end up fighting those that are improving the situation for people like you or you end up arrested for a very serious offense.

where did you get this from? i've not heard anything about improving things - it's "always" been the case that you don't bribe here (and not just police - the only time in ten years i bribed anyone was one guy who sold bus tickets, and that was kind-of creepy). do you have any reference for this improvement work (if you're right i'm curious to read about it; corruption has been in the news quite a bit the last few years)?

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#94

Post by willyt »

jacquesm wrote: post #66
adinb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar situation in Rome, Italy of all places...was shaken down by a subway officer for having 'invalid stamps' on our subway passes (they were obviously completely valid). If we just paid a fine of xx euros directly to him, everything would be just fine...otherwise, he'd need to take us to the station, delay us (we were military and in the country for a NATO conference) to the point we'd miss our meeting. B…

You did that wrong. The trick is when you go out for a day to keep your wallet empty of cash, simply have your cards in there but no money. I've travelled just about anywhere like this and the 'sorry man, no cash' works fine every time (I have some in my back pocket but I'm not going to tell a guy like this about that). I also instantly lose any ability to speak a word of the local language and my English, so they're…

Pretending to be Dutch is not such a good idea. Almost all dutch people speak very good English. In fact I've noticed that some Dutch people will get a bit offended if you ask if they can speak English because they all can. So if the officer knows anything about the Dutch they will know you are taking the piss.

On an unrelated note. I dont know about other countries, but in the UK I believe it's a criminal offence to bribe a foreign official, so UK citizens might want to bear this in mind when posting about thier experiences on the internet, other countries may have similar laws.

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#95

Post by jacquesm »

andrewcooke wrote: post #92
jacquesm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Chile is working very hard on improving their police force and not reporting an attempted bribe can get a police man there into serious trouble. Really, don't do it. It's a lose-lose situation. Either you end up fighting those that are improving the situation for people like you or you end up arrested for a very serious offense.

where did you get this from? i've not heard anything about improving things - it's "always" been the case that you don't bribe here (and not just police - the only time in ten years i bribed anyone was one guy who sold bus tickets, and that was kind-of creepy). do you have any reference for this improvement work (if you're right i'm curious to read about it; corruption has been in the news quite a bit the last few ye…

"always" is indeed the operative bit. It wasn't always like this. Not at all.

Starting in 1994 Chile made a real push to clean up its act (which it really had to, it was making some other countries with very bad reputations look good by comparison).

They not only created a whole pile of legislation (which is the easy part), they actually acted on it. The net result of this is that Chile is now ahead of the United States in the corruption perception index:

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

A result they can be very proud of, especially given the surrounding countries. There is still a lot of work to do, there will always be a pressure for the return of corruption where it has already been dealt with but on the whole I think this is a fantastic achievement in a time-frame that makes it even more impressive.

The effect of cleaning up at the higher levels of government has trickled down to lower parts to the point where bribing police is no longer acceptable/required, as it should be.

In Chile the various achievements have been in reaction to scandals that got wide exposure, it seems that that is one avenue through which real change can be brought about.

If all of Latin America would adopt the various Chilean policies I'm pretty sure that it would benefit the region greatly, just imagine if 17 years from now you'd be able to say the same about Colombia, Peru and Venezuela. Apologies to Uruguay, they've been doing pretty good as well.

More reading:

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/event/070710_Penailillo.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#96

Post by jacquesm »

willyt wrote: post #94
jacquesm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did that wrong. The trick is when you go out for a day to keep your wallet empty of cash, simply have your cards in there but no money. I've travelled just about anywhere like this and the 'sorry man, no cash' works fine every time (I have some in my back pocket but I'm not going to tell a guy like this about that). I also instantly lose any ability to speak a word of the local language and my English, so they're…

Pretending to be Dutch is not such a good idea. Almost all dutch people speak very good English. In fact I've noticed that some Dutch people will get a bit offended if you ask if they can speak English because they all can. So if the officer knows anything about the Dutch they will know you are taking the piss. On an unrelated note. I dont know about other countries, but in the UK I believe it's a criminal offence to…

There is not much to pretend, I am Dutch... it also says so in my passport & driving license. And my English, as you can see is absolutely terrible.

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#97

Post by andrewcooke »

jacquesm wrote: post #95
andrewcooke wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where did you get this from? i've not heard anything about improving things - it's "always" been the case that you don't bribe here (and not just police - the only time in ten years i bribed anyone was one guy who sold bus tickets, and that was kind-of creepy). do you have any reference for this improvement work (if you're right i'm curious to read about it; corruption has been in the news quite a bit the last few ye…

"always" is indeed the operative bit. It wasn't always like this. Not at all. Starting in 1994 Chile made a real push to clean up its act (which it really had to, it was making some other countries with very bad reputations look good by comparison). They not only created a whole pile of legislation (which is the easy part), they actually acted on it. The net result of this is that Chile is now ahead of the United Sta…

ok, i think i have finally found what you're talking about - in 94 frei's govt created the Comisión Nacional de Ética Pública

but this was related to the transition from the junta to civillian rule (and of course the junta was corrupt). that is really old news.

so sorry, i misunderstood your original reply. yes, that's a/the historical explanation. but if you ask someone in the street why you don't bribe police it's because it's a simple fact of normal behaviour these days. the kind of corruption that occurred during the junta is seen as exceptional to those times.

there have been several scandals more recently, but they're generally related to politicians more than police (and probably helped pinera get elected in the hope that a new broom would sweep cleaner).

[edit: sorry, have been editing significantly; thanks for updated link]

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#98

Post by jacquesm »

andrewcooke wrote: post #97
jacquesm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"always" is indeed the operative bit. It wasn't always like this. Not at all. Starting in 1994 Chile made a real push to clean up its act (which it really had to, it was making some other countries with very bad reputations look good by comparison). They not only created a whole pile of legislation (which is the easy part), they actually acted on it. The net result of this is that Chile is now ahead of the United Sta…

ok, i think i have finally found what you're talking about - in 94 frei's govt created the Comisión Nacional de Ética Pública but this was related to the transition from the junta to civillian rule (and of course the junta was corrupt). that is really old news. so sorry, i misunderstood your original reply. yes, that's a/the historical explanation. but if you ask someone in the street why you don't bribe police it's…

Sorry about the broken link, I really hate it when google does not allow you to cut-and-paste links to documents, especially pdfs.

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/events/070710_Penailillo.pd...

Here is a re-try. The document linked is quite frank about achievements and areas that still need (a lot of) work.

Yes, the Junta was corrupt, but the government that replaced it had its issues too, and they worked quite hard on fixing those.

The kind of corruption that is not tolerated in Chile is par for the course in pretty much all the surrounding countries.

I'm not sure if pre-transition Chilean materials are representative of reality.

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#99

Post by Evbn »

willyt wrote: post #94
jacquesm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did that wrong. The trick is when you go out for a day to keep your wallet empty of cash, simply have your cards in there but no money. I've travelled just about anywhere like this and the 'sorry man, no cash' works fine every time (I have some in my back pocket but I'm not going to tell a guy like this about that). I also instantly lose any ability to speak a word of the local language and my English, so they're…

Pretending to be Dutch is not such a good idea. Almost all dutch people speak very good English. In fact I've noticed that some Dutch people will get a bit offended if you ask if they can speak English because they all can. So if the officer knows anything about the Dutch they will know you are taking the piss. On an unrelated note. I dont know about other countries, but in the UK I believe it's a criminal offence to…

Has a Briton ever been punished for paying a blackmail in a foreign country? Seems unlikely.

Re: McAfee’s Third World Travel Guide

#100

Post by Evbn »

4ad wrote: post #85
ghshephard wrote: post #3

Is there anyone who has lived in one of these South American areas like Belize for a long time able to confirm any of this system of paying bribes to police officers at traffic stops? Also, is his statement about police 'planting drugs' just so much self serving nonsense, or has anyone ever had a police officer actually do that? The entire essay sounds somewhat specious to me...

I lived in Romania for 20 years, a country more civilized (I use that term very loosely) than Belize, and even here, what he is describing is very common. In fact, the article doesn't describe the full picture. The bribery is not only with the police, is with everybody in a public function . This includes any bureaucrat (believe me, we had many) and doctors. No bribery, poor or nonexistent treatment. There are some p…

It is like the apochryphal caged monkeys experiment. People learn that corruption is then only way to get ahead, and who wants to be a martyr? One person can't change the system, some sort of massive coordinated action would be needed-- but how? Hence, rebel groups and freedom fighters and whatnot, but those have their own problems.
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