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A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

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Re: A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

#91

Any competitive sailor or foil-racer knows that the underwater surface has the least friction and best laminar flow when sanded with fine-grid sandpaper, around 1000 to 1500 grid. It always surprised me that this was not true in air and airplane wings were supposedly best when glossy. So now it turns out that this is indeed not true, and airfoils also benefit from micro-roughness for lowest friction. Now the surprisi…

I wonder how quickly airlines will adopt sanded/rough wings. It's also interesting that the efficiency of winglets were known for quite awhile but only somewhat recently have nearly all airliners adopted them.

At least a decade.

I remember people could smoke on planes. On some airlines seat backs and bathrooms had cigarette ashtrays in them. Smoking was phased out between 1988 and 2000, with most airlines being smoke free in the mid-1990s.

But the ashtrays persisted well into the 2000s. Two reasons: they needed to refresh the cabins, which is on a longer maintenance cycle done every few years, and before that, they needed replacement seats and bathroom fittings without the ashtrays. That meant tests, regulatory approval, all sorts.

For ashtrays being removed.

Winglets are a similar story. They're an addition, but they needed test flying and type approval before they could be added to the maintenance cycle rotation and get added to aircraft.

This is a bigger change. Boeing and Airbus (and others), are going to need to design it, push it through CFD, build different variants, test fly them, get them through regulatory approval and then... well, existing aircraft are probably not going to get these. Too expensive, too hard.

What's going to make more sense is a new aircraft - even if it's a variant type like the 737-MAX or the A320-Neo or whatever - where they approve the type modification as a whole, but it's not a retrofit to an existing airframe, will help manufactures sell more aircraft, airlines don't need to ground existing fleet and over time the fuel efficiencies get involved.

Re: A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how quickly airlines will adopt sanded/rough wings. It's also interesting that the efficiency of winglets were known for quite awhile but only somewhat recently have nearly all airliners adopted them.

At least a decade. I remember people could smoke on planes. On some airlines seat backs and bathrooms had cigarette ashtrays in them. Smoking was phased out between 1988 and 2000, with most airlines being smoke free in the mid-1990s. But the ashtrays persisted well into the 2000s. Two reasons: they needed to refresh the cabins, which is on a longer maintenance cycle done every few years, and before that, they needed…

The FAA still requires ashtrays in bathrooms interestingly. To avoid those who do smoke there using the trash and causing a fire:

  Regardless of whether smoking is allowed in any other part of the airplane, lavatories must have self-contained, removable ashtrays located conspicuously on or near the entry side of each lavatory door, except that one ashtray may serve more than one lavatory door if the ashtray can be seen readily from the cabin side of each lavatory served
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.853

Re: A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

#93
post #31

It's almost certainly my adblocker playing poorly with their "subscribe to read" stuff, but I had to lol at the failure mode. When I load the page, I get the splash image/headline, and below it: > Subscribe to listen [9 minutes] > Aerodynamic drag is a major “barrier” in high-speed airplanes, automobiles, and bullet trains. This is because a design with less aerodynamic drag allows the aircraft to move at higher spee…

Same happened to me but I opened it in reader view in Firefox and it's fine!

Re: A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how quickly airlines will adopt sanded/rough wings. It's also interesting that the efficiency of winglets were known for quite awhile but only somewhat recently have nearly all airliners adopted them.

At least a decade. I remember people could smoke on planes. On some airlines seat backs and bathrooms had cigarette ashtrays in them. Smoking was phased out between 1988 and 2000, with most airlines being smoke free in the mid-1990s. But the ashtrays persisted well into the 2000s. Two reasons: they needed to refresh the cabins, which is on a longer maintenance cycle done every few years, and before that, they needed…

> For ashtrays being removed.

I don't think it's safe to generalize from this to a functional aspect of the plane. Removing the ashtrays serves no purpose, so there's no cost to letting it wait for a decade or two. Improving the aerodynamics does serve a purpose and might be done faster.

Re: A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

#96

Any competitive sailor or foil-racer knows that the underwater surface has the least friction and best laminar flow when sanded with fine-grid sandpaper, around 1000 to 1500 grid. It always surprised me that this was not true in air and airplane wings were supposedly best when glossy. So now it turns out that this is indeed not true, and airfoils also benefit from micro-roughness for lowest friction. Now the surprisi…

The core tenant of the paper is that roughness reduces drag IN the transition zone. A very small region of the total flow. Thats the region between laminar and turbulent flow. Laminar flow is typically 5x less drag than turbulent, and will be encountered about a Reynolds number of 500K-1M (ratio of inertial flow to viscous flow). Surfboards will have a Reynolds number of 10^7 which is entirely turbulent. A Cessna air…

> Surfboards will have a Reynolds number of 10^7 which is entirely turbulent.

A fin, foil or daggerboard below the board/boat is operating well within the range of Reynolds' numbers where laminar flow is relevant.

Re: A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

#99
post #31

It's almost certainly my adblocker playing poorly with their "subscribe to read" stuff, but I had to lol at the failure mode. When I load the page, I get the splash image/headline, and below it: > Subscribe to listen [9 minutes] > Aerodynamic drag is a major “barrier” in high-speed airplanes, automobiles, and bullet trains. This is because a design with less aerodynamic drag allows the aircraft to move at higher spee…

Same stuff! I’d rather prefer some archive link or something. Some websites are a bit aggressive these days.

https://archive.ph/YwAky

Re: A fundamental principle of aeronautical engineering has been overturned

#100
post #60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and airfoils also benefit from micro-roughness for lowest friction. I thought this was known to some extent that smooth surfaces are not always the best e.g. golf balls have dimples on them? No?

Never mind. I didn't read the article (paywalled) and someone in the comments below answered this exact point.

https://archive.ph/YwAky
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