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It is time to build a new internet

mrmarket.bearblog.dev

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Re: It is time to build a new internet

#91

Post by lesostep »

INMHO, to build something like that people need a solid institute of reputation back, and – and! – they need to remember who sellouts are and how to push them out.

It's not a technical problem, but a societal one. We stopped pushing out sellouts, because we knew that life was unaffordable and we wanted people we admire to be able to afford it.

10 years passed, and people on youtube become a part of stock portfolios.

So we have to solve that issue – either we want people rewarded monetarily, and it all will go to shit optimized for monetization, or we don't, and we will sometimes have to see people we like and admire struggle with poverty.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#92

Post by geoah »

stackghost wrote: post #70
kettlecorn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered if a pseudo-social / pseudo-technical solution of some sort of trust graph could help. Like you would say who you think is credible and human. An algorithm would evaluate trust on your behalf and it would look to the people you trust, and then who they trust, and so on and assign scores to people. Distrust, or even other observations, could percolate in a similar way. Then on social networks, or some…

>I have wondered if a pseudo-social / pseudo-technical solution of some sort of trust graph could help. I'm actually building this

been playing around with similar stuff as well just for fun but I'm not happy with any solution so far :( -- if there is anything you can share I'd love to take a peek :)

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#95

Post by Ukv »

throw0101a wrote: post #94

Meta: why do people call the Internet "internet" (in English)? It's a proper noun and should be capitalized. (Besides just the laziness of people not bothering to press shift (like not using punctuation).)

Tends to happen as terms become familiar (Phonograph becomes phonograph, Universe becomes universe, Web site becomes website, …) and lowercase-i internet is now recommended by various style guides.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#96

Post by mrmarket »

dang wrote: post #84
JeremieDecoop wrote: post #6

It's the most dumb article I have ever seen on Hackernews with respect to the writer who has knowledge about protocols and concepts. No TCP/IP means no normal internet routing. → You would need a totally new way for machines to find and send data to each other. Bots are not tied to HTTP/HTML forever, people can write new bots for the new protocol, including by the use of GUI automation (digital or with plotters that…

> It's the most dumb article I have ever seen on Hackernews Can you please not do this in comments? It is very demoralizing to post something and be met with this kind of reaction, which will hit the other person 100x harder than I'm sure you intended. You can make your substantive points without that.

Thanks for sticking up for me, lol. It's ok though. He's partly right in that I was in a rash burn-it-all down mood at the time of this post. Suggesting we start from scratch re: create an entirely new way to transfer information between machines was obviously pretty hyperbolic and over the top. I had just seen one too many AI-generated posts on bearblog and wanted to do the equivalent of go off-grid and hope there was some organic beauty to be found there before the parking lots inevitably appeared.

Anyway, let this be a lesson to me. Next time I post to HN, I should count to 10 and look at my rant with more rational eyes. No harm done.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#97

Post by mrmarket »

Author here. I got eaten up, lol. But thanks to those who recommended Gemini, this is exactly what I was looking for.

For the record: I know starting from scratch and creating a new way for machines to transfer information is nearly impossible and certainly redundant/not worth the squeeze. But everyone is right to call that out, lol. I was feeling frustrated by the pervasiveness of AI slop and just fired this one off. It was the equivalent of vowing to go completely off grid after seeing one too many ads in a doctor's office. I was basically fantasizing about buying time before those with a profit motive showed up. Of course, we will always run into the same problem whenever a commons materializes. It's our nature, after all.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions I did get, though. And appreciated the vast majority of the discourse here.

In the interest of transparency: I deleted the stuff about stripping the internet to the studs, lol. But I will own that I suggested it. It's just perhaps a distraction to my true point, which was that the beautiful internet experiment is in a state of vast humiliation.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#98

Post by anal_reactor »

kettlecorn wrote: post #50
kelseyfrog wrote: post #14

> What we basically need is a completely new protocol stack that is not interoperable with TCP/IP. You cannot solve social problems using technical solutions. Someone would simply build a bridge and siphon data out or in. Interoperability is one of those low-hanging fruits that, once solved, ruins its value.

I have wondered if a pseudo-social / pseudo-technical solution of some sort of trust graph could help. Like you would say who you think is credible and human. An algorithm would evaluate trust on your behalf and it would look to the people you trust, and then who they trust, and so on and assign scores to people. Distrust, or even other observations, could percolate in a similar way. Then on social networks, or some…

This solution has been tried again and again and each time it failed:

1. Most websites that aren't dead had huge influx of new users at some point of their history. Recommendation system cannot handle that - it becomes a bottleneck, and people move to a competitor that doesn't have this problem.

2. Suppose you have a community and you say that each new user needs to be at least 99% compatible with what the community already stands for. Congratulations, your community will decay exponentially with each new user bringing the quality down just a tiny bit until it's gone.

The solutions that actually work tend to be UI-oriented. For example, 4chan has an outdated interface not because admins don't know to do modern UI, but rather because outdated UI filters off normies.

The biggest challenge is the balance between new users, who tend to bring the quality down, and old users, who are boring and have nothing to say beyond what has already been said.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#99

Post by iamnothere »

apothegm wrote: post #28
jplusequalt wrote: post #9

Some form of gatekeeping, or vouching system seems far more practical to implement.

All it takes, though, is for one unscrupulous or lazy individual to join, and then they vouch for a few people they don’t really know, and then you get a bot vouched for, and then a few more, and the first few bots vouch for other bots, and soon they’re all vouching for each other and you’re back to where you started. Basically, it’s a system that works at a scale where individuals can hold one another accountable. B…

Lobste.rs tracks who vouched for who, and can (and does) ban users at the root of bot farms as well as the entire tree below.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#100

Post by jmclnx »

zzo38computer wrote: post #33
jmclnx wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and it is cell phone friendly. I moved my site to gemini a couple of years ago. Maintenance is trivial compared to the WEB. There is also gopher and USENET, but on cells it can be hard. But the largest issue is the users attraction to "bright and shiny". I think no matter what comes I fear it will end up on the same path as now. Gemini has the ability to avoid enshitification, but it is still not attracting users…

Gopher and Gemini can both work on many kind of devices; having a monochrome display, or the differences in input (e.g. having numbered lines works OK, especially since both require links to be on a line by itself, unlike HTML), etc, without the author of the document needing to worry about such things like that. In both cases text entry might sometimes be needed so is not ideal but still it is possible. What is "TLC…

TLC (tender loving care) means a better method to avoid spam. That can be a problem with USENET.
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