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Airport Security Is Killing Us

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Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#91

Post by gyardley »

grecy wrote: post #64
tadfisher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I find it interesting when Americans don't want America as a whole to be compared to other countries as a whole, because inevitably it makes for an unfavorable comparison. Of course looking at a country-wide statistic is an average across the whole country - that's the entire point. I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could find a part of Oregon where the homicide rate is 0.1, but that doesn't tell us much about th…

America has a single federal government, yes. If you just want a ranking, you can go ahead and use the national average.

However, America is ridiculously diverse culturally, and just using the national average is useless for understanding anything about America.

Perhaps the Americans in the thread aren't trying to avoid an unfavorable comparison - it's not like Americans aren't aware of the pros and cons of their own country. Perhaps they're actually trying to teach you something about their country and point out that relying on averages can be misleading.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#92

Post by rayiner »

mkr-hn wrote: post #59
aneth4 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Custody searches in this context are forbidden by the fourth amendment, by the way, regardless of what the TSA's legal team may claim. As is x-raying baggage and body-scans. Fourth amendment rights don't apply to the same extent when you are on private property, when there are balancing security concerns, when you enter a courthouse, when you enter a school, etc. You know the deal when you enter these places and yo…

What's the point of a right if it can be violated where you most need it?

Boarding an airplane probably isn't where 4th amendment rights are most needed...

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#93

Post by pkteison »

epoxyhockey wrote: post #76
pavel_lishin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand the situation is different if you really want your carry-on bag to stow above you. Or in the cabin. If you're the last to board, there's a very real possibility that they may have to gate-check your bag, which adds additional wait time at the end of your journey at best, and your bag arriving in Minnesota while you're touching down in Dallas at worst.

and your bag arriving in Minnesota while you're touching down in Dallas at worst Is this even possible when gate checking? They literally walk your bag down the stairs at the end of the gate and place it into the plane cargo hold. EDIT: At the end of the flight, your bag is walked up the stairs back into the jetway. I personally love the gate check loophole. If you intentionally wait to board last, you get a free bag…

I have had a gate-checked bag forgotten about and left in the boarding ramp. So yes, problems are still possible with gate check.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#94

Post by gjm11 »

epoxyhockey wrote: post #76
pavel_lishin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand the situation is different if you really want your carry-on bag to stow above you. Or in the cabin. If you're the last to board, there's a very real possibility that they may have to gate-check your bag, which adds additional wait time at the end of your journey at best, and your bag arriving in Minnesota while you're touching down in Dallas at worst.

and your bag arriving in Minnesota while you're touching down in Dallas at worst Is this even possible when gate checking? They literally walk your bag down the stairs at the end of the gate and place it into the plane cargo hold. EDIT: At the end of the flight, your bag is walked up the stairs back into the jetway. I personally love the gate check loophole. If you intentionally wait to board last, you get a free bag…

I don't know whether exactly that is possible, but I have had the following happen: my bag got gate-checked on an intra-US connecting flight, and my carrier then wouldn't return it until I reached my final destination in London.

Which meant that I didn't have it with me when my flight to London was cancelled and I had to stay overnight in Chicago (too bad since it had my washkit and a change of clothes in it) and that when the replacement flight was also cancelled and I ended up going to London with a different carrier, my bag didn't get home until a couple of days after I did.

I will not be flying with United Airlines again in a hurry.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#95

Post by jpxxx »

tptacek wrote: post #84
jpxxx wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very specifically talking about custody searches, not pat-downs or "enhanced pat-downs" (an imaginary term created by the TSA's marketing team). Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, there has been no Supreme court ruling on the constitutionality of any of these techniques in the context of airport security. I'm glad to be proven wrong. The most relevant ruling I know of was from a half century ago and it wasn't t…

Why would it be lawful for the TSA to search through your underwear, but not lawful for them to feel you up? Where would the Constitution be drawing that line? The fact of the matter is that it's SCOTUS that sets the standards here, not the Constitution.

Correct. My point is that SCOTUS has not said word one about these standards.

"Constitutionally reasonable administrative searches" in the context of an airport are legal, per SCOTUS. Consent has nothing to do with it, that concept does not apply here.

But, critically, SCOTUS has never ruled on whether the current TSA techniques are constitutionally reasonable. The only thing for sure is that the 3rd says that they must be 'minimally intrusive' and 'escalat[e] in invasiveness only after a lower level of screening disclose[s] a reason to conduct a more probing search'.

For further reading: United States Vs. Aukui from the 9th http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1265662.html

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#96

Post by lambda »

tptacek wrote: post #82
michaelfeathers wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone feels that they can tell me what I consent to, they do not understand the meaning of the word consent.

You can not walk up to the security checkpoint at the airport. To see why this matters, imagine that the TSA could, as soon you bought a ticket, search you in your home. The police can actually do that, if they have a warrant.

There is a difference between "consent" and "putting up with because you want something else more."

I generally have a greater need to fly than to avoid being felt up. This does not mean I consent to being felt up. The fact that the Supreme Court mistakes this for consent bothers me greatly.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#97

Post by mkr-hn »

rayiner wrote: post #92
mkr-hn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of a right if it can be violated where you most need it?

Boarding an airplane probably isn't where 4th amendment rights are most needed...

I wish I had thought to keep links, but I've seen enough reports of people being picked out of the line for further review based on race, gender, and other attributes to want to see an investigation.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#98

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #53
jpxxx wrote: post #38

A quibble, because this whole fucking disgusting thing fills me with limitless rage: TSA agents do not perform 'pat-downs'. Pat-downs are very quick checks to see if any obvious weapons are being concealed on someone's body. Police will do these before putting a suspect into a police vehicle, for instance. TSA employees do what are called 'custody searches', designed to find contraband material on detainees. These ar…

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

Spot-on. I think people tend to just read the word "unreasonable" out of the text, because it's a wiggle-word. But it's not the Supreme Court that put that word in there, it was the framers. And the framers did so knowing that "reasonable" is a signal word inviting judicial line-drawing.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#99

Post by CamperBob2 »

[deleted] wrote: post #26
joonix wrote: post #2

I opt-out of the x-ray scanner every single time, and so should you. It really doesn't take much longer to go through the process. Show up 3 minutes earlier if you have to. You're rushing to the gate, for what? To sit there longer? Boarding with the crowds is stressful anyways. The most relaxed way to board is at the very end -- there's no more line, I just walk right into the plane, most people are seated, and just…

[deleted]

Fun fact of the day: No other profession allows you to X-ray the general public without receiving health physics training or certification.

What could possibly go wrong? I don't know, and neither do you, and neither does the guy running the machine.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#100

Post by davidwparker »

grecy wrote: post #64
tadfisher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I find it interesting when Americans don't want America as a whole to be compared to other countries as a whole, because inevitably it makes for an unfavorable comparison. Of course looking at a country-wide statistic is an average across the whole country - that's the entire point. I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could find a part of Oregon where the homicide rate is 0.1, but that doesn't tell us much about th…

If you think about it this one, then wouldn't it be best to compare homicides per kilometer or mile? The point the parent was making is entirely valid though- the United States is a huge country compared to most.
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