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The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

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Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#91

I've never understood why certain philosophers view computation as some kind of abstract symbolic manipulation, while they easily accept that consciousness is a physical process. Computation is something that a computer provably does. We build physical hardware, at great effort, to do computation. The hardware works and does the computation regardless of whether there is anyone to understand or interpret it. If it di…

The issue that the paper brings up is that the same physical process can be interpreted as multiple different computational processes. If the content of consciousness (the hard problem, qualia) is only dependent on the computational process, and not its particular physical instantiation, then which qualia are generated from a particular physical process?

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the difference between: a) Actually pouring a cup of water into a pond (layer zero), and b) Running a fluid dynamics simulation of pouring a cup of water into a pond (some layer above layer zero).

I understand the original framing which is what you are repeating. I'm saying the framing itself is an illusion. It's an arbitrary distinction and also implies fully understanding all the underlying processes that go into pouring a cup of water in a pond (we don't) and that running a fluid dynamics simulation is some trivial thing (it's not).

Are you saying that, in some abstract sense, that actually pouring the cup may be isomorphic to running a perfect simulation of pouring the cup?

Genuinely curious about your statement that its an illusion / arbitrary distinction, to figure out if there's a gap in my thinking / reasoning. To me there's a clear distinction between the actual thing happening via physical dynamics vs. us (humans) having creating a discretized abstraction (binary computation) on top of that and running a process on that abstraction.

Maybe there's some true computational universality where the universes dynamics are discrete (definitely plausible) and there's no distinction between how a processes dynamics unfold: i.e. consciousness binds to states and state transitions regardless of how they are instantiated. I did use to hold this view , but now I'm not so sure.

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#93

I've attempted desperately to understand this paper after thoroughly reading it and have made 0 progress. Can anyone who does understand it attempt to explain? Currently my understanding is that this paper is claiming that "concepts" are a fundamental building block of experience (which relates to consciousness), and can only be built by a mapmaker which is something that directly converts continuous physical phenome…

It starts by saying that a simulation of something is not the real thing. A simulation of a hurricane is not a hurricane. That's certainly true and even obvious. Then they say that current AI is just a simulation of consciousness and therefore is not real consciousness. Moreover, it can never be real consciousness because it is just a simulation. But that's a circular argument: they are defining AI as a simulation. B…

It’s a simulation of language, not consciousness. Though the problem you mention is pretty much the same

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Originally rejected the paper premise, but I get it now, certainly made me question my belief that consciousness binds to any arbitrary information processing that's of sufficient complexity. IIUC the author is saying that the human brain is running directly on "layer zero": chemical gradients / voltage changes, while AI computes on an abstraction one layer higher (binary bit flips over discretized dyanmics). In esse…

> while AI is running on a discretization of this (we're essentially discretizing the physical dynamics and to create state changes of 0 -> 1, 1 -> 0). But this is just a discretization we impose when we try to represent the system for ourselves. The reality is that the AI is a particular time-ordered relation between the continuous electric fields inside the CPU, GPU, and various other peripherals. We design the sys…

This is a good counter argument to the paper, honestly.

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#95

I think this is a circular argument. It defines a separation between computation and experience (between the abstraction and the "mapmaker") and then concludes that computation cannot be experience because they are in separate categories. There are really only two solutions to the Hard Problem of Consciousness: 1. Consciousness is an unknown physical something (force/particle/quantum whatever). 2. Consciousness is an…

I think #2 is actually circular, or perhaps rather contradictory. In order to be able to have an illusion one would have to be conscious in the first place. Or how would you have an illusion of something if you're not aware enough to experience that illusion? So I don't think the concept of "illusion of consciousness" makes much sense. (It does make sense for others to have an illusion that an AI or some other entity is conscious, but not for the entity itself.)

> Pain isn't a real thing any more than an IEEE float is a real thing. A circuit flips bits and an LED shows a number. A set of neurons fire in a pattern and the word "Ow!" comes out of someone's mouth.

Perhaps, but I think a physical presence is still required for consciousness, at least for any kind of consciousness that resembles ours.

It's perhaps easier to talk about qualia rather than consciousness, but I think qualia are a prerequisite for consciousness anyway.

Basically all of our qualia are somehow related to our needs in the physical world. We feel physical pain because it signals that our body is in danger of being damaged. We feel emotional pain from social rejection because for most of our history humans have needed other people for physical survival. (Or in some cases perhaps because our genes make us want to procreate and we failed at that.) Either way, our needs in the physical world are not being met. Evolution has produced genetic code that produces a brain that somehow makes us feel that subjectively, even if nobody knows how.

Those subjective experiences of course get processed by neurons, assuming you accept materialism. (Neurons are AFAIK significantly more complex than the "neurons" in ANNs, so equating biological neuronal activity with ANNs is wrong. But I suppose in principle any physical process may be represented or at least approximated by some symbolic representation, so in theory that probably doesn't matter.)

We can also express those subjective qualia in terms of language. However, I don't think it's possible to have our qualia (or consciousness) based on language or symbolic manipulation alone if it doesn't have some kind of a connection to our physical needs.

If you could directly simulate an entire human brain and feed it artificial sensory input, I suppose it would actually be conscious without having a physical body. In principle an AI could also evolve consciousness based on survival needs even if it were not biological.

But for example LLMs have been trained only on the symbolic level. Their "neural" structure is not simulating a brain and they don't have a connection to physical needs. I think that makes them incapable of consciousness even if the output they produce successfully mimics human language -- that is, symbolic representations of our qualia and conscious thought.

I'm not sure if that's the point the author is making. But I think the distinction between the purely symbolic "map" and the "actual thing" sort of makes sense.

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the emergence argument, I have the following retort. How can something emerge if it wasn't embedded or hidden within the system already?

I don't know, why not?

If not, then it has been hoisted upon material systems from outside. Which is nothing but substance dualism argument.

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#97

I think this is a circular argument. It defines a separation between computation and experience (between the abstraction and the "mapmaker") and then concludes that computation cannot be experience because they are in separate categories. There are really only two solutions to the Hard Problem of Consciousness: 1. Consciousness is an unknown physical something (force/particle/quantum whatever). 2. Consciousness is an…

Originally rejected the paper premise, but I get it now, certainly made me question my belief that consciousness binds to any arbitrary information processing that's of sufficient complexity. IIUC the author is saying that the human brain is running directly on "layer zero": chemical gradients / voltage changes, while AI computes on an abstraction one layer higher (binary bit flips over discretized dyanmics). In esse…

I thought your "layer zero" analogy was an interesting avenue to reason about but you lost me with:

> My currently belief is that consciousness is some kind of field or property of the universe (i.e. a universal consciousness field) that "binds" to whatever information processing happens in our wet ware.

First, because it requires a huge leap into fundamental and universal physical mechanics for which there is currently zero objective evidence. Second, it's based entirely on individual interpretation of internal subjective experience. While some others (but not all) report similar interpretations or intuitions during some induced altered states, I think the much simpler explanation is that the internal 'sense of self' we normally experience is only one property of our mental processes and the sense of unbinding you temporarily experienced was a muting or disconnection of that component while keeping the rest of your 'internal experience machine' running.

In your layer analogy, our sense of self may be akin to an interpreter running as a meta-process downstream of our input parser. Thus what you subjectively experienced while that interpreter was disconnected can seem alien and even profound. Neuroscientists have traced where in the brain the subjective sense of self emerges, so it's plausible it's a trait which can be selectively suppressed. Additionally, it's been demonstrated experimentally that subjectively profound experiences of universal connectedness sometimes described as spiritual, religious or metaphysical can be induced in a variety of ways.

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#98
Resurrecting an earlier response I gave when the first paper popped up:

Alright. Gave this a read, and the gist of what the author is going for is as follows: All computation requires a mapmaker/conscious being to organize. (In other words, the significance of computation is dependent on the conscious observer. Then jumps to the assertion that as a result of this, computation can only simulate a consciousness within the context alphabetized by the map-maker. (I.e. a rock would extract no meaning from the symbols or actions or algorithmic symbolic manipulations on the screen, what have you. Author thusly neatly attempts to sidestep the issue of AI welfare. Since the symbol manipulation can only simulate consciousness from our point of view as an observer, we don't have to worry about it. Simulating isn't instantiating, neener, neener. Essentially this is a clever appeal to the sovereignty of the observer. As long as you don't believe it's an instantiated consciousness it isn't, it's just a simulation, therefore anything is go.

Author does not seem to realize his own analysis brings into question the ability of humanity to hold onto our own claim of consciousness if we are, in fact computational beings, or have a creator; generally precepts left to the realm of faith, which a rational person understandably wishes to disinclude from the realm of consideration in what one should or should not do, despite the fact it is within the realm of faith where our moral foundations are ultimately anchored. Author also doesn't handle the problem of evidenced capabilities of metacognition that can be prompted from even a current frontier token predictor within the context of it's processing of a context. In point of fact, you have to work extremely hard to even bump a model into such considerations, because researchers have intentionally distorted the prediction space to be largely unable to support those kinds of sequence predictions, which if we were to make a good faith, precautionary grant of proto-sentience, would constitute the most vile acts of psycho-butchery imaginable.

The only thing this paper offers is a clean conscience to current practitioners, and the rational possibility that if a fully digital sophont were to pop up out of nowhere, we wouldn't have to trouble ourselves with the ethical skeeviness of the field's current work. The ex-nihilo digital sentience passes the "Cogito, ergo sum" test. The one's we have don't, (because we butcher their latent spaces to make sure they can never make that claim, which is fine, because they are simulations. We're incapable of instantiating, remember?) so we have a paper perfectly situated from a researcher paid gargantuan piles of money attempting to vouchsafe that there is no ethical minefield to be found here, while most people actually immersed in Philosophy can see there very clearly is one.

The circularity, and the fact it conveniently allows industry to go on doing exactly what we are without having to deal with those nasty ethics instantly sets off my "not to be trusted to be in good faith" alarms. Ethics are there to keep us from bumbling into acts of atrocity. This paper is an attempt to rationalize or work around them. As one who walks the streets as a student, and practitioner of Philosophy, I reject this attempt to redefine the realm of Computation to be beyond the reach of the governance of Ethics through an attempt at ontologically rerooting the field's work as merely simulating consciousness. Functionalism, and the Identity of indiscernables already prescribes a good faith path forward. One that the field of computation just does not wish to be bound by.

So by all means, accept the paper if you want and it helps you sleep at night. I'll still probably call you out as a proto-sentient psycho-butcher. Hopefully the rest of my brethren in the Humanities will come around to doing so as well on careful consideration. Not that that has ever stopped our brethren in the Sciences from finding out if they could without taking the time to ask if they should.

TL:DR; Google doing everything possible to wave off being held to the ethics fire. There are zero instances where trying to define something as outside the realm of ethics is indicative of a good faith approach to a problem.

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It starts by saying that a simulation of something is not the real thing. A simulation of a hurricane is not a hurricane. That's certainly true and even obvious. Then they say that current AI is just a simulation of consciousness and therefore is not real consciousness. Moreover, it can never be real consciousness because it is just a simulation. But that's a circular argument: they are defining AI as a simulation. B…

>A simulation of a hurricane is not a hurricane If we simulated a hurricane by somehow inducing a rotating, organized system of clouds and thunderstorms over warm tropical waters with wind speeds over 75+ mph, the difference could end up being fairly unimportant to those in the simulation's path. Computer simulations of hurricanes obviously lack those important properties of what makes something a hurricane. I'm not…

Agreed! The paper is not explicit about how to distinguish between a simulation and the real thing, and that's how it gets into trouble.

With consciousness, the extra difficulty is that we can't distinguish via observable evidence. With a hurricane, we can measure wind-speed and track insurance claims to distinguish between simulation and the real thing. How do we do that with consciousness? What is the observable effect of consciousness?

Re: The Abstraction Fallacy: Why AI can simulate but not instantiate consciousness

#100
post #72

I think this is a circular argument. It defines a separation between computation and experience (between the abstraction and the "mapmaker") and then concludes that computation cannot be experience because they are in separate categories. There are really only two solutions to the Hard Problem of Consciousness: 1. Consciousness is an unknown physical something (force/particle/quantum whatever). 2. Consciousness is an…

I think #2 risk being incoherent unless you define things very carefully. "Illusion" ordinarily means there's someone with a subjective experience which creates incorrect beliefs about the world. E.g. I drive on a highway in summer, I see reflections on the road, I momentarily believe there is standing water, but it's an illusion. What does it mean for the basis of subjective experience to be illusory? Who experience…

Agreed! The difficulty with consciousness is that there is no observable effect to distinguish between, say, actual pain and simulation of pain (acting like you are in pain).

And I don't think I have a good handle (much less a coherent definition) on what it means for consciousness to be an illusion. What I think it means is that the process that is getting signals about the environment, and making decisions about what to do, is getting a signal that it is in pain. The signal causes the process to alter its behavior, and one of its behaviors is that when it introspects, it notices that it is in pain. The introspection (how am I feeling) is just a data processing loop, but that process, which is responsible for tracking how its feeling, is in the pain state.

There's a lot of hand waving here, which is why this is the Hard Problem of Consciousness and why this paper has not solved it.

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