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The looming college-enrollment death spiral

theatlantic.com

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Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#91

Post by mcmcmc »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #85
seniorThrowaway wrote: post #18

I think college's value proposition and entire model has been eroded. Major school's CS grads are finding jobs upon graduation at an 11% rate (I don't have the primary source on this, but it is published by a site I read that never fudges these kinds of things, going back many years). AI probably has a lot to do with that, but it's exposing something more fundamental. CS wasn't supposed to be a programming boot camp…

The idea that the AVERAGE person should spend 4 years BOTH not working AND incurring massive amounts of (non-defaultable) debt is bananas. College either needs to be 1) way cheaper, 2) mainly for the state-subsidized exceptional and independently wealthy, or 3) move to a different model. We have too many colleges LARPing as Harvard, and too few colleges even attempting to be affordable, practical, or actually deliver…

So community colleges?

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#92

Post by glial »

aorona wrote: post #90
danny_codes wrote: post #52

IMO we should pay adults to go back to school. Make all public universities free and pay a living stipend. Give additional stipends for dependents. Easy win for everyone.

but why

Well, for one thing, critical thinking and communication skills seem to be in short supply.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#93

Post by lux-lux-lux »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #88
bashtoni wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher education improves society as a whole. It should be paid for from general taxation, and available to all. Humanities subjects are just as valid a topic of study as STEM. A couple of generations ago these were uncontroversial statements, now most people think you are crazy for suggesting such a thing. I think you can trace a lot of the problems in the western world back to this.

Lots of things benefit society and don't cost $40k per year per person in subsidies - mainly to the upper middle class.

Strange how I never see this line deployed against the mortgage interest deduction or health care for wealthy retirees, both of which are considerably more expensive.

Subsidizing college education, at least, has a reliably positive ROI.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#94

Post by dylan604 »

linkregister wrote: post #83
dylan604 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet the primary reason students attend universities in person is the parties, the co-eds, and the start of life from outside the direct supervision of parental units. Let's be honest, all of this education stuff is secondary to that.

This seems like the conclusion someone would come to by watching 1980s college movies, not someone who looked at data. Community colleges, vocational schools, and commuter students represent a large proportion of college students, and are removed from the Animal House experience. The primary goal for attending college, as stated by both students and parents, is for preparation for entrance into the workforce and adul…

This seems like the conclusion someone would come to by not having an honest conversation about the subject. It is entirely possible that one can attend classes while attending various parties on the weekend or even various events at night after classes. Your knee jerk reaction to my comment that everything is going to be Animal House, Porky's, or Revenge of the Nerds level of shenanigans says more about you.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#95

Post by triceratops »

bashtoni wrote: post #87
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the AVERAGE person should spend 4 years BOTH not working AND incurring massive amounts of (non-defaultable) debt is bananas. College either needs to be 1) way cheaper, 2) mainly for the state-subsidized exceptional and independently wealthy, or 3) move to a different model. We have too many colleges LARPing as Harvard, and too few colleges even attempting to be affordable, practical, or actually deliver…

Higher education improves society as a whole. It should be paid for from general taxation, and available to all. Humanities subjects are just as valid a topic of study as STEM. A couple of generations ago these were uncontroversial statements, now most people think you are crazy for suggesting such a thing. I think you can trace a lot of the problems in the western world back to this.

You're both right. College is beneficial to society. And it costs way too much to deliver right now.

You could copy-paste these statements to describe American healthcare vs European healthcare and get a very different reaction. Even though it's true for that field too.

Why the actual fuck does a humanities degree cost anywhere near as much as an engineering degree? Literally all you need is some professors and a space to teach in. You could run them in co-working spaces, parks (weather permitting), or coffee shops ffs, with no administrative staff or other bloat. (For real: small seminars in a coffee shop or a public park would be dope)

Education is beneficial to society and making it cheaper makes it more widely accessible. You and the person you responded to actually agree on a lot.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#96

Post by triceratops »

lux-lux-lux wrote: post #93
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of things benefit society and don't cost $40k per year per person in subsidies - mainly to the upper middle class.

Strange how I never see this line deployed against the mortgage interest deduction or health care for wealthy retirees, both of which are considerably more expensive. Subsidizing college education, at least, has a reliably positive ROI.

Then at the very least college debt should be dischargeable in bankruptcy the way people can walk away from their mortgage.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#97

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

lux-lux-lux wrote: post #93
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of things benefit society and don't cost $40k per year per person in subsidies - mainly to the upper middle class.

Strange how I never see this line deployed against the mortgage interest deduction or health care for wealthy retirees, both of which are considerably more expensive. Subsidizing college education, at least, has a reliably positive ROI.

> mortgage interest deduction

By far the worst offender.

> health care for wealthy retirees

Theoretically, they paid into the system to get their dues.

> Subsidizing college education, at least, has a reliably positive ROI.

There's evidence at the State level, at least in many states, it does not pay for itself.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#98

Post by Spooky23 »

dylan604 wrote: post #54
seniorThrowaway wrote: post #18

I think college's value proposition and entire model has been eroded. Major school's CS grads are finding jobs upon graduation at an 11% rate (I don't have the primary source on this, but it is published by a site I read that never fudges these kinds of things, going back many years). AI probably has a lot to do with that, but it's exposing something more fundamental. CS wasn't supposed to be a programming boot camp…

> Maybe college never should have been for everyone? This is my sentiment. School counselors pushed everyone to colleges, but actively dissed trade schools. Forcing students to take classes in subjects they absolutely do not care about is a terrible idea for a secondary education track. If someone really just wants to learn a trade and have a nice life, there is nothing wrong with that. Did CS course really just beco…

Well yeah, trades suck ass. There are alot of dudes in cushy well paid office gigs extolling the virtues of trade work.

It wasn’t some awful conspiracy, physical trade jobs are hard work and with no pensions or benefit protection, there’s a lot of guys struggling when their bodies are broken at 40. In the 80s, most urban trades were unionized with benefit funds etc. Not the case in 2026.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#99

Post by downrightmike »

coredog64 wrote: post #65
danny_codes wrote: post #52

IMO we should pay adults to go back to school. Make all public universities free and pay a living stipend. Give additional stipends for dependents. Easy win for everyone.

Insert "just need to subsidize demand" meme here.

That's how we got here

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#100

Post by downrightmike »

akramachamarei wrote: post #84
munificent wrote: post #46

As long as people are allowed to vote in the US, we have an incentive to ensure they are all well educated. Surely a large part of this problem that the article doesn't mention is that college is too fucking expensive. And an obvious solution to that is to tax rich people and use that to fund universities so that students don't have to go so far in debt in order to become productive members of society. It's crazy how…

The US tax system is substantially more progressive than you might think.¹ It seems unwise to make it even moreso. The tough pill to swallow, if we are to follow in e.g. Sweden's footsteps, is that you need to tax the middle class a lot more if you want the government to provide more services. By the way, this whole discussion completely ignores that the country is BROKE. Why are we contemplating building a new patio…

Debt is 120% GDP
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