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Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

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Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#91
If you read Gina Perry’s critique, her conclusions is that fewer than half of the participants thought it was real.

These were Yale students, so probably smarter than average, and the study didn’t do a very convincing job make it seem believable from what I’ve read.

When I took psychology in college I had to submit to random experiments to as part of my grade (there were alternatives but the experiments were easier). Before I’d ever heard of Milgram, if one of those studies had put me in a similar situation I would have smelled a rat immediately.

When I was in middle school the teachers created a fake “government decree” to convince us that there was a new sin tax on products kids use (as a simulation). I immediately knew it was fake as did many other students, but that didn’t stop us from playing along for fun. I talked to a few of my teachers later and they genuinely believed that we fell for it.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#92
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but then you don't need to change anything, simply measure how many people act the opposite way to what they were raised, and then you'll know.

> Right but then you don't need to change anything, simply measure how many people act the opposite way to what they were raised, and then you'll know. That's presuming the only influence on a child's development are the adults who are raising them, which is not true.

In that case, preventing abuse has the same issue (it only changes the adults).

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alot of the problem with these “disproven” things is over broad scope or abused in the popular media beyond comprehension. The delayed gratification thing in particular is correlation vs. causation. It was really more about trust. Forcing kids to delay gratification is meaningless or counterproductive.

Agree. But according to Gemini [for what's worth] the final 1990 Mashmallow's study [since first versions were cautious] did indeed jump to conclusions to point there was a causation to a better later life. The media might have amplified, but the wrong (or misleading) conclusion was already present in the _scientific_ paper.

If a scientific paper makes a conclusion, that doesn't mean its a correct, valid, or properly supported conclusion.

You instead look at the claim and the data and the experiment methodology. It often says something far far less generalizable or significant than the conclusion section of the paper.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#94
post #84

To be clear, this doesn't seem like it invalidates anything in the original experiment. The "rule-breaking" isn't referring to anything the researchers were doing. It's referring to what the participants were doing. It points out that the compliant subjects who delivered the shocks weren't always following the procedure they were given perfectly. Which is, of course, expected, since people in general don't follow ins…

If anything, this makes the study more revealing and terrifying. Basically under ill guidance of authority, people can become real monsters. That is the conclusion I got from it, and is now still worse.

> people can become real monsters

It's being consistently verified in real time if you track current events.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#95
post #9

> By staying silent and letting the memory study fall apart, the experimenter allowed an atmosphere of illegitimate violence to flourish. Many people are cruel. Not all people, maybe; not most people, also maybe; but some people enjoy hurting others. We see this everywhere. Isn't it possible that this kind of profile jumped on the occasion to inflict pain on people with no fear of repercussions? In other words, isn't…

People that have been abused are more likely to abuse others. If we remove this cycle of abuse, what is the natural rate of humans that will hurt others? An uncomfortable idea, as victims become perpetrators, it may be best to segregate victims to prevent future abuse and victimization.

In practice this just stops victims from coming forward and deepens the cycle

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#98

If you read Gina Perry’s critique, her conclusions is that fewer than half of the participants thought it was real. These were Yale students, so probably smarter than average, and the study didn’t do a very convincing job make it seem believable from what I’ve read. When I took psychology in college I had to submit to random experiments to as part of my grade (there were alternatives but the experiments were easier).…

That's pretty fun that your teachers did that. I wish teachers attempted to immerse students in the things they're teaching about more often, rather than just reading about it in abstract through a textbook or whatever.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the Dunedin study also find that childhood self-control and delayed gratification correlated with adult life outcomes? https://dunedinstudy.otago.ac.nz/files/1571970023782.pdf

Last I checked, the delayed gratification was also highly correlates with having wealthy parents.

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