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FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

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Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#91

Post by CodeWriter23 »

juancn wrote: post #48

I love how the makers can "just disagree". I'm Argentinian and if ANMAT (our FDA) recalls something, it's gone, no involvement from the manufacturer really needed. They could revoke your license to make and sell food wholesale.

Our Constitution accounts for government agents gone awry so there is back and forth. The FDA can go as far as mandating a recall but they need evidence, which they obviously lack at this point or they would just mandate the recall.

This is some FDA operatives using the rules and a PR campaign to wage war on raw dairy, something that is not new in this country at all.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#92

Post by foobarchu »

scottyah wrote: post #89
fhn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does traditionalist mean? He's antivax. He should pasteurize either. I hope he doesn't take flu shots or even go to the hospital because that is just unnatural. Who need medicine when he can just eat tomato leaves.

In this case, it's just being a bit more risk-adverse on new things. He's not trying to prevent all people from getting vaccines, he just doesn't want them mandated until they've passed FDA approval afaik. He's against things like petroleum-based food colorings, preferring colorings that have existed in food and deemed safe over a long time. He's anti-heavily processed foods, and believes that the "food science" that…

> "There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective."

> "I do believe that autism comes from vaccines"

He can claim he's not antivaxx, but he repeatedly makes statements that are pulled straight from the anti-vaxx playbook of lies.

Stop giving anyone in this administration the benefit of the doubt. They have demonstrated they do not deserve it.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#93

Post by Hikikomori »

scottyah wrote: post #89
fhn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does traditionalist mean? He's antivax. He should pasteurize either. I hope he doesn't take flu shots or even go to the hospital because that is just unnatural. Who need medicine when he can just eat tomato leaves.

In this case, it's just being a bit more risk-adverse on new things. He's not trying to prevent all people from getting vaccines, he just doesn't want them mandated until they've passed FDA approval afaik. He's against things like petroleum-based food colorings, preferring colorings that have existed in food and deemed safe over a long time. He's anti-heavily processed foods, and believes that the "food science" that…

While Americans food system needs an overhaul RFK is an antivax nutcase with blood on his hands.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#94

Post by Hikikomori »

amarant wrote: post #71
delecti wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it better , or just more traditional? France is a country that cares a lot about food tradition.

It is better. We have a decently strong cheese tradition in Sweden too, but French cheese is tastier. I don't even like the French, their culture is obnoxious, I'd take every chance to shit on the French. But you just can't argue with their cheese, it's that good. Some of their wines are ok too, but I mostly prefer Italian on that front.

Italian cheeses similar to French types from the alp regions are very good as well. Beppe and his cheeses in Rome.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#95

Post by not_the_fda »

amluto wrote: post #65
harshreality wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ricotta and paneer appear to be high-heat cheeses, where pasteurization is implicit in the first step even if the milk wasn't pasteurized to begin with. Cheddar, the kind of cheese allegedly at issue in this outbreak, appears to be a low-heat cheese, so you wouldn't start by heating the milk to pasteurization temps. If the milk isn't already pasteurized, the resulting cheese might be contaminated. European soft chees…

> in the interest of supplying "raw milk product" fanatics You might be on to something. In the US, raw milk cheeses are not at all unusual. It's not even especially hard to buy raw milk, although (at least where I am) you generally need to go to a fancier grocery store or a farmer's market to find it. But what is weird is that the farm in question literally calls itself "Raw Farm". There are many cheesemakers, both…

Depends entirely on the state. In Wisconsin, the "dairy capital of the world", its illegal except for incidental sales directly from the dairy farm.

Reason being they don't want outbreaks to be linked to Wisconsin's dairy industry.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#96

Post by array_key_first »

scottyah wrote: post #89
fhn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does traditionalist mean? He's antivax. He should pasteurize either. I hope he doesn't take flu shots or even go to the hospital because that is just unnatural. Who need medicine when he can just eat tomato leaves.

In this case, it's just being a bit more risk-adverse on new things. He's not trying to prevent all people from getting vaccines, he just doesn't want them mandated until they've passed FDA approval afaik. He's against things like petroleum-based food colorings, preferring colorings that have existed in food and deemed safe over a long time. He's anti-heavily processed foods, and believes that the "food science" that…

Yeah, all these new-fangled technologies like... vaccines and... um, pasteurization.

When did Louis Pasteur die again? 1895? Okay.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#97

Post by BenjiWiebe »

comrade1234 wrote: post #19

I make cheese (ricotta and paneer) from raw milk all of the time at home. Raw milk is easy to buy here in Switzerland. I get a noticeably better result with raw milk than pasteurized, and terrible terrible results from ultra-pasteurized milk. By 'better' I mean quantity per liter but also the size of the curds. The thing that I find amusing is that I think people in the USA actually just chug raw milk like it's regul…

When I make raw milk cheese (small commercial, USA) the milk gets only about 1-3 degrees (Fahrenheit!) above the cows body temperature.

Also our family has been drinking raw milk all our lives, and there are a lot of people who come to our farm and get raw milk to drink.

I'm not aware of anyone ever getting sick from our milk (unless lactose intolerant/allergic of course).

If you are heating your milk to 85C, I'm sorry, but that's not really raw milk cheese anymore. When I make pasteurized cheese the milk is heated to only 63C (albeit for 30 minutes).

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#98

Post by BenjiWiebe »

amluto wrote: post #65
harshreality wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ricotta and paneer appear to be high-heat cheeses, where pasteurization is implicit in the first step even if the milk wasn't pasteurized to begin with. Cheddar, the kind of cheese allegedly at issue in this outbreak, appears to be a low-heat cheese, so you wouldn't start by heating the milk to pasteurization temps. If the milk isn't already pasteurized, the resulting cheese might be contaminated. European soft chees…

> in the interest of supplying "raw milk product" fanatics You might be on to something. In the US, raw milk cheeses are not at all unusual. It's not even especially hard to buy raw milk, although (at least where I am) you generally need to go to a fancier grocery store or a farmer's market to find it. But what is weird is that the farm in question literally calls itself "Raw Farm". There are many cheesemakers, both…

In the US, if you're actually seeking out raw milk cheese, watch out. If the milk is pasteurized but not legally pasteurized (inspected, licensed, documented) it must be sold as raw milk cheese. Even if you boiled it for an hour first.

Then there's also some raw milk cheese that is heat treated for less than the requirement for pasteurization, but still much hotter than required for the cheese process.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#99

Post by BenjiWiebe »

hsuduebc2 wrote: post #44
comrade1234 wrote: post #19

I make cheese (ricotta and paneer) from raw milk all of the time at home. Raw milk is easy to buy here in Switzerland. I get a noticeably better result with raw milk than pasteurized, and terrible terrible results from ultra-pasteurized milk. By 'better' I mean quantity per liter but also the size of the curds. The thing that I find amusing is that I think people in the USA actually just chug raw milk like it's regul…

Isn't the amount of cheese determined by amount of fat/protein in the milk itself and pasteurized is sometimes skimmed?

The yield is determined by the components (fat, protein, and other solids) in addition to the process the milk has underwent, and the cheese recipe. In our cheese making there's not a noticeable reduction in yield on pasteurized cheese, but we do a lower/slower pasteurization.

Re: FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall

#100

Post by BenjiWiebe »

jhawk28 wrote: post #46
pingou wrote: post #3

"The FDA has highlighted studies finding that pasteurization does not negatively affect the nutritional value of milk. Still, advocates of raw milk continue to claim, without evidence, that raw dairy has benefits." Well, perhaps it has taste benefits?

There is no taste difference between raw and pasteurized milk. The taste comes from the container. If you have both in glass, there is no discernible difference. My father is a dairy farmer and bet his professor (many years ago) that he could taste the difference. The professor setup a blind taste test where he gave my father pasteurized and raw milk in glass cups. There was no difference. "Nutritional value" is a ve…

It may depend on the milk quality and the dairy. There's definitely a taste difference between our raw milk and our pasteurized milk, and neither one is bottled.

You can even sniff the pasteurizer and smell if it's the raw milk or if it's been pasteurized.

Also when making cheese, the naturally occurring bacteria and enzymes in raw milk make quite a large flavor difference (from a cheesemaker's perspective anyways).

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