Earlier quoted context omitted.
> AI is actually better getting those built as long as you clean it up afterwards I've never seen a quick PoC get cleaned up. Not once. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but it's very rare in the industry. The reality is that a PoC usually becomes "good enough" and gets moved into production with only the most perfunctory of cleanup.
The key to every quick POC having a short life, is a reliance on manual work outside of the engineering team.
Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
91–100 of 103 posts
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#92Verifying that they all work can be done in many ways, most of them high-touch - but to me the most effective way is to build a test suite.
And the best way to get a test suite while building is Test Driven Development TDD (with the key trait that you witnessed the tests fail before making them pass, giving you proof they actually prove something about your code) is a high leverage way to ensure details are documented and codified in a way that requires “zero tokens at rest”. If a test fails, something has been un-built; something has regressed. Conversely if all tests pass, your agent burned zero tokens learning that.
The industry will keep inventing other solutions but we have this already, so if you’re in the know, you should use it.
If you’re wondering how to get started you (or your agent) can crib ideas from what I’ve done & open sourced: https://codeleash.dev/docs/tdd-guard/
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you know what happens to every industry when they get too fast and slapdash? Regulation. It happened with plumbing. Electricians. Civil engineers. Bridge construction. Haircutting. Emergency response. Legal work. Tech is perhaps the least regulated industry in the world. Cutting someone’s hair requires a license, operating a commercial kitchen requires a license, holding the SSN of 100K people does not yet . If AI…
> Regulation will follow. I would hope so, but it won't happen as long as the billionaire AI bros keep on paying politicians for favorable treatment.
I've been saying this for a while, but within a generation, software will be as regulated as finance.
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#94Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We'll need to figure out the techniques and strategies that let us merge AI code sight unseen. Why do you assume that's doable? I'm not saying it's not, but it seems strange to just take for granted that it is.
Why do you assume I assume it's doable? :P For real, I'm not certain we will ever be able to merge AI code without human review. But: 1. Every time I've confidently though "AI will never be able to do X" in the last year, I've later been proven wrong, so I'm a bit wary to assume that again without strong reasons. 2. I see blog posts by some of the most AI-forward people that seems to imply some people are already man…
Because you say we need to figure out techniques to do it. If it's not possible, then there are no techniques to do it. Since you want the techniques, I assume you assume that they exist.
> 1. Every time I've confidently though "AI will never be able to do X" in the last year, I've later been proven wrong, so I'm a bit wary to assume that again without strong reasons.
That's evidence that you shouldn't assume something is impossible. I'm not suggesting that, either.
> 2. I see blog posts by some of the most AI-forward people that seems to imply some people are already managing large codebases without human review of raw code. Maybe they're full of crap - there are certainly plenty of over-credulous bs artists in the AI space - but maybe they're not.
Do you have any idea whether this works well though?
> 3. The returns on figuring this out are so incredibly high that, if it's possible, people will figure it out.
Ok. But again, that's a big if there.
The returns on breaking a popular cryptographic algorithm are also huge, but that's not an indication that it's possible, or that it's impossible for that matter.
I'm baffled why people think that "it would be great if..." has any bearing on the chances that the thing that follows is true.
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#96We're building our tooling around it (thanks, Claude!) and seeing what works. Personally, I have my own harness and I've been focused on 1) discovering issues (in the broadest sense) and 2) categorizing the issues into "hard" and "easy" to solve inside the pipeline itself.
I found patterns in the errors the coding agents made in my harness, which I then exploited. I have an automated workflow that produces code in stages. I added structured checks to catch the "easy" problems at stage boundaries. It fixes those automatically. It escalates the "hard" problems to me.
In the end, this structure took me from ~73% first-pass to over 90%.
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We'll need to figure out the techniques and strategies that let us merge AI code sight unseen Every strategy which worked with an off-shore team in India works well for AI. Sometime in mid 2017, I found myself running out of hours in the day stopping code from being merged. On one hand, I needed to stamp the PRs because I was an ASF PMC member and not a lot of the folks who were opening JIRAs were & this wasn't a t…
> Every strategy which worked with an off-shore team in India works well for AI. Why hasn't SWE then not been completely outsourced for 20 years. Corporations were certainly trying hard.
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#98This is going to be way harder now vs. when we used to write the code ourselves. In contracting space, the problem now is that you may have a client that vibe coded an app and be very out of touch about the costs involved to have a developer approve it. It's going to be a hard sell, when the client builds the entire thing themselves and you are a mare peasant doing QA review.
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Every strategy which worked with an off-shore team in India works well for AI. Why hasn't SWE then not been completely outsourced for 20 years. Corporations were certainly trying hard.
Cost. Claude code is two orders of magnitude cheaper than an offshore dev.
Re: Verification debt: the hidden cost of AI-generated code
#100Verification debt has always been present, we just now feel an acute need for it, because we do it wrong. Clause and friends represent an increase in coders, without any corresponding increase in code reviewers. It's a break in the traditional model of reviewing as much code as you submit, and it all falls on human engineers, typically the most senior. Well, that model kinda sucked anyways. Humans are falliable and I…
Will the TLA+ spec Claude spits out do what the users actually desire? Will there be human oversight of the spec? If not, I don't see how it really helps if the future human machine interface is supposed to be loosey goosey natural language. The best thing I can conceive is some human observers of the system saying "Claude, the behavior as it stands now is perfect! Set it in stone with TLA+." But this whimsical idea…
Well that's my suggestion, but I suppose nothing rules out an "all apprentices, no sorcerers" failure mode.