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Elite Overproduction

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Elite Overproduction

#91

Post by csa »

imtringued wrote: post #78
terminalshort wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities were just elite finishing schools. It's a status signal to be able to afford to spend 4 years of your youth not working, partying, and paying tuition to "study" subjects that have no economic value (studying practical things like medicine and law was not elite because it shows that you need to work for a living). This stopped being a status signal with the advent student loans because it removed the excl…

This also explains why so many people tell you that you really need that $50k to $100k a year ivy league degree. For some reason people keep telling you that you will get a better education if you pay a ridiculous amount of money for it and even if it's not better and you can't figure out how to pay the student loan off, you should still go for it, because education is it's own goal, as if it was a consumer product.…

> For some reason people keep telling you that you will get a better education if you pay a ridiculous amount of money for it and even if it's not better and you can't figure out how to pay the student loan off, you should still go for it, because education is it's own goal, as if it was a consumer product.

Only rubes think this.

The formal education at most elite universities trends towards quite bad, with a few exceptional classes.

The access to resources (academic, social, professional, etc.) at universities is phenomenal, but this only matters if the student uses those resources (most don’t).

Elite colleges typically have a great education, but they are usually just as expensive as elite universities, but with much less prestige — they are only “worth it” (if you’re looking for value) as a stepping stone to something else.

> This obviously doesn't make sense from an educational perspective. If education is good for you, why make it unaffordable and out of reach?

If someone chooses to go to an elite school while not understanding the value prop (or lack thereof), that’s on the applicant rather than the school.

> Low cost colleges are supposedly inferior and not everyone gets to become "an educated well rounded individual".

Low cost colleges serve an important function, and imho it’s just as easy to be “an educated well rounded individual” at one of these schools. They may not be as prestigious, but the value of most average or better universities and colleges is largely based on the efforts made by any given student (which trends towards being very low effort).

Re: Elite Overproduction

#92

Post by casefields »

roenxi wrote: post #26

I'm sure the actual theory goes in to a lot of detail in academic papers and whatnot, but the Wiki summary is to vague to be interesting. There is a key question left unanswered. Who are the elite? Are the elite: - billionaires? - top 1,000 Political leadership? - top Military leadership? - top 10% of society by wealth? - top 10% of society by influence? - smart people? - hard working people? - people with valuable e…

The first 5 are all considered elite. He says the elite are about 2% so that's about 7 million people on the US.

But you're also missing his Elite Aspirants category which are people who have acquired credentials and social capital necessary for elite status (like a law degree from a top-tier university or an MBA).

Re: Elite Overproduction

#93

Post by BobaFloutist »

jgalt212 wrote: post #59
armchairhacker wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've observed that when big waves of (labor) change washes over the working classes, it is met with "tough luck!" and some advice to seek a new profession, often starting again at the very bottom. Where have you observed this? I really believe that we should increase automation in blue-collar work, e.g. self-checkouts. But I don’t believe those displaced should “start at the bottom”. I believe they should get bette…

> Where have you observed this? NAFTA

I keep hearing this, what policy do you think we should have pursued instead of NAFTA? I assume you wouldn't want completely open free markets, so some form of protectionism? Tariffs? Import quotas? Should we have started a trade war with Mexico and Canada?

I could see a fair argument that NAFTA should have insisted on labor protections and parity in minimum wages, but it's weird because NAFTA is already somewhat protectionist, albeit including Canada and Mexico under the umbrella. So even if I steelman that your beef is that it didn't go far enough, that doesn't really explain the vitriol.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#94

Post by ftmootnomoat »

morkalork wrote: post #89
betaby wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when this happens to the educated professional class, all hell breaks loose. If the programmers fall into the "educated professional class", then no, not in Canada. I personally know people with engineering/science degrees who became "warehouse sorters", baristas, metal workers, parcel deliverers, cooks in cafeteria. Some of them eventually found programming jobs again, others are still employed in blue collar/…

Canadian programming job market is weird, places are hiring and can't find people, and people are looking and not being hired. IMO nobody wants a junior and everyone wants the mythically perfect candidate. Employers are gonna have to bite the bullet and hire people less qualified and train them up but they refuse.

It's always been that way. They're looking for a senior at the price of a junior. That kind of job listing has always been around, and it makes companies look good to have openings.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#95

Post by pembrook »

whattheheckheck wrote: post #30
pembrook wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So essentially, this is why the suburbs of Washington DC are among the highest income regions in the world. You don’t have to invent new technologies if you simply position yourself next to halls of power and the money printer.

Well also think about every fortune 1000 company and the mini fiefdoms that exist in each of them

Those are largely fiefdoms of competence and positive-sum value creation. The fortune 1000 are generally both accountable to shareholders, customers and vulnerable to attack by competition if they get too incompetent.

The left-populists of HN will of course argue that all private business is a scam (using edge case anecdotes), but that's juvenile so I won't even waste time confronting that.

The US federal government on the other hand, is largely unaccountable to anyone, even its voters, and has zero competitive pressures. They are undeniably the largest, and least accountable fiefdom of all.

Hence why Fairfax, Loudoun, Montgomery, etc counties (suburbs of DC) together have nearly 70,000 housholds with an income over $500K+ per year. Edging out the entire Bay Area while having less people.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#97

Post by whattheheckheck »

pembrook wrote: post #95
whattheheckheck wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well also think about every fortune 1000 company and the mini fiefdoms that exist in each of them

Those are largely fiefdoms of competence and positive-sum value creation. The fortune 1000 are generally both accountable to shareholders, customers and vulnerable to attack by competition if they get too incompetent. The left-populists of HN will of course argue that all private business is a scam (using edge case anecdotes), but that's juvenile so I won't even waste time confronting that. The US federal government…

I was pointing out that without the business fiefdoms to keep the wanna be princes at bay there would be a lot more political problems

Re: Elite Overproduction

#98

Post by netfortius »

Ekaros wrote: post #7

I have largely gotten to idea that education never made elites. It was just signal most of time for someone who already belonged to elite class. From this people started to think that getting education would mean to become elite. But this was reality only for a few. And even with many of those it was questionable were they elites or only more skilled and more professional groups like say doctors and lawyers.

Maybe not in specific countries, but where education is free and exclusively merit based (tests every few years, test to enter college, etc. ) it does lead to ability to reaching elite status.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#99

Post by aleph_minus_one »

ftmootnomoat wrote: post #39
jackdoe wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I fully expect the next revolution to be fronted by that class. the keyboard warriors?

Unironically yes. They were promised a seat in the ruling class. All they got was crippling debt. That’s how you incubate dissidents.

> They were promised a seat in the ruling class.

Where was this promise given? I am not aware of such a promise. :-(

Addendum: I am really surprises that you claim such a promise existed, since a seat in the ruling class requires a very different training and different qualifications (even completely ignoring "soft entry barriers" like habits).

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