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Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

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Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#91

Post by thesz »

weatherlite wrote: post #64
spiffytech wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while they affect a similar percentage of people, they don't necessarily affect the same individuals. Same for therapy modalities, which often show similar efficacy in studies, but different efficacy for any given person. So you've got to try different things and figure out what works for you.

> Same for therapy modalities, which often show similar efficacy in studies, but different efficacy for any given person. It's even more complicated than that - you can probably click well and succeed with one therapist and get a completely ineffective treatment by another therapist and I'm not sure we even understand why that well (saying one therapist is better than the other is not always true). With it being the…

  > what's your alternative?
Brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) serum levels are inversely associated with depression's severity [1].

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3188695/

Give yourself a good BDNF boost through diet and/or exercise.

Ketogenic diet even improves on schizophrenia to the point that patients go off from medication [2] [3].

[2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12237970/

[3] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/nutrition/articles/10.3...

That's my alternative.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#92

Post by GuB-42 »

joe_mamba wrote: post #3

How to solve most cases of depression, make sure to get all these (if you can): - good diet with no junk food, alcohol, drugs and stimulants - regular exercise and outdoor time - good sleep hygiene - regular healthy social interactions - eliminate environmental stressors (job/financial stress, relationship stress, noise pollution, etc) Of course, not everyone can have everything and some of those aren't 100% under yo…

Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

All of what you describe besides environmental stressors are symptoms of depression. So, to solve depression, you must first solve depression.

And even the environmental stressors are something we could work with as a society though welfare, environment regulations, etc... But how people react to them is also a symptom. There are depressive people with the best of situations, and people who enjoy life in the worst of situations. What often strikes me in documentaries about warzones, places of repression and extreme poverty or crippling diseases is how "normal" people seem to be, they enjoy themselves as if everything was fine. So, while reducing environmental stressors work, it is not the end of it.

The take may be that treating the symptoms of depression could work in treating the root cause, a positive feedback loop. But if done through lifestyle change, unfortunately, the treatment is coercion, you can't rely on the willpower of people who have none because of the disease.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#93

Post by hn_throw2025 »

joe_mamba wrote: post #49
weatherlite wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At no point did we actually... go to a gym You really don't have to go to a gym if you don't like it , or do something "hard" that many people dislike like running. You can simply walk briskly for 150 minutes a week (which is the recommended dose, and which 80% of Americans and other Westerners don't meet). That is time outside (vitamin D) + moving your entire body - less chronic pain, better joints, better bones e…

>You really don't have to go to a gym if you don't like it ... You can simply walk briskly for 150 minutes a week I don't like flossing and brushing my teeth either, but yet I still do it regularly. In fact, I never met anyone who brushes they teeth out of enjoyment, but out of habit. Similarly, the habit of exercise(and other health related activities) needs to be cultivated, you don't have to like it, you just do i…

I’ve tried various kinds of exercise over the years, and I think the key is to keep experimenting until you find something sustainable that you actually like. And make it as frictionless (in terms of getting started) as possible.

I use a walking pad at home. Each night after dinner, I’ll go into that room and watch a movie (or half) on my iPad when I’m walking on it. I did over 3 miles last night (at a moderate pace), and that’s pretty typical. Not because I’m trying to work out, just because I’m into the movie and don’t want to stop. If I had friction of needing fresh gym clothes, having to drive somewhere, or thinking about if the weather is nice enough for an outside walk, I would probably be too lazy to walk most evenings. If I didn’t have the entertainment of the movie, I would probably find the exercise boring and not feel incentivised. I do it because I’m looking forward to the movie and I know I’ll feel great afterwards.

As they say, you need to design your habits for the laziest, most unmotivated version of yourself.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#94

Post by giglamesh »

throw4847285 wrote: post #34

I've seen the exact same post on HN maybe a dozen times. The psychology of people posting this sort of advice is more interesting to me than the advice itself.

I hope this phenomenon is not limited to HN, but this is the only place I'm aware of where the comments are often more interesting and useful than the posts.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#95

Post by bulbar »

joe_mamba wrote: post #3

How to solve most cases of depression, make sure to get all these (if you can): - good diet with no junk food, alcohol, drugs and stimulants - regular exercise and outdoor time - good sleep hygiene - regular healthy social interactions - eliminate environmental stressors (job/financial stress, relationship stress, noise pollution, etc) Of course, not everyone can have everything and some of those aren't 100% under yo…

That's a dangerous take. People that suffer from a clinical depression oftentimes won't be able to do any of these things and this has nothing to do with responsibility and everything with suffering from a depression.

From what I have learned from friends working in the field, meds often work as an enabler, allowing people to do some of the things that are known to improve their condition further.

If you think you suffer from depression, don't keep trying to "just buckle up", don't keep trying to "just need to take responsibility". Go talk to professionals, therapists and/or psychiatrists. Mental disorders do things to a person outside of their control.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#96

Post by bulbar »

joe_mamba wrote: post #49
weatherlite wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At no point did we actually... go to a gym You really don't have to go to a gym if you don't like it , or do something "hard" that many people dislike like running. You can simply walk briskly for 150 minutes a week (which is the recommended dose, and which 80% of Americans and other Westerners don't meet). That is time outside (vitamin D) + moving your entire body - less chronic pain, better joints, better bones e…

>You really don't have to go to a gym if you don't like it ... You can simply walk briskly for 150 minutes a week I don't like flossing and brushing my teeth either, but yet I still do it regularly. In fact, I never met anyone who brushes they teeth out of enjoyment, but out of habit. Similarly, the habit of exercise(and other health related activities) needs to be cultivated, you don't have to like it, you just do i…

When you suffer from a clinical depression, no amount of accountability will fix this.

Also, when you are low on mental resources, don't try to do something that you dislike to begin with just because you believe it's optimal. Instead, do the thing that's potentially non optimal but sustainable. For example, start to do regular walks instead of going to the gym.

To be honest, I am kind of shocked of the comments here on HN regarding this topic.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#97

Post by gavinray »

There's no money in telling people "You will feel better if you move around a little each day, and don't eat junk food."

Plus, the grand of majority of people would rather NOT move around and continue to eat junk food regardless. Animals evolved to be lazy.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#98

Post by thefz »

gavinray wrote: post #97

There's no money in telling people "You will feel better if you move around a little each day, and don't eat junk food." Plus, the grand of majority of people would rather NOT move around and continue to eat junk food regardless. Animals evolved to be lazy.

Waiting for the inevitable peak HN comment "we should distillate the chemicals released during exercise into a pill and give it to people so they don't need to move"

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#99

Post by wvh »

BenFranklin100 wrote: post #56

Reistance training — moreso than cardiovascular exercise — can improve sleep quality and duration. Both have significant effects on daytime mood and cognition. A good exercise program incorporates both resistance and cardiovascular exercise.

It's important to keep cortisol low, and over-exercise can cause cortisol to spike – as does depression in general, hence the sleeping difficulties many depressed people experience. Likely that's why resistance training and HIIT are more helpful in this case as there is less built up of stress hormones.

I've been diagnosed with moderate to severe depression, and I'm a trial runner and do CrossFit. It's a balancing act to find strength and feeling capable through sport without increasing insomnia and early waking, likely because of cortisol spikes.

Sport does more for me than antidepressants, which have little effect than making me feel tired all the time. I've gone through a whole battery of them with little success and I've become quite critical of them. But I'm lucky to generally like sport and eat pretty healthily; I can imagine for others that can be an extra stressor they really don't need.

Re: Exercise has 'similar effect' to therapy, study on depression shows

#100

Post by _DeadFred_ »

This is the worst thing about having long COVID (well other than no one believing it is a thing). I had worked for years working back to being fit, had gotten up to benching 245 for 3 sets of 10. Workouts kept helped keep me balanced. Now I can barely squat 100lbs 5 times. It's so frustrating. And no one believes it's real. Like I had the fortitude to spend years building back strength and then one day I just chose to stop.
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