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Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

nytimes.com

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Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#91

Post by rimbo789 »

9x39 wrote: post #89
rimbo789 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said nothing about cheap labour. People should get to move and live where they want. If Switzerland has a lack of infrastructure it should build more, not xenophobically cap its population. You can’t freeze a society in amber.

This view reduces countries to nothing more than oversized hotels or economic zones, as if they don’t have communities that go back many generations and who would fight or die to defend the borders. Think this through: If the world likes your real estate, they can just come in and take it over overnight? Borders suddenly don’t matter? Pop caps can easily be understood as visa or naturalization buffers. Hysteria doesn…

Nationalism and borders have done very little for humanity.

The world would be a better place if we defined our communities by how we welcomed people and not by who we excluded

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#92

Post by happytoexplain »

retired wrote: post #72
hmokiguess wrote: post #39

I support that. If you tried doing the inverse, for example, migrate to an Islamic country and bring over Christianity there, you would not be welcomed at all. I’m an expat and one thing I’ve learned is to integrate myself with the culture of the country that adopted me, I believe this shows respect and that I am aligned with its values and principles.

> migrate to an Islamic country and bring over Christianity there, you would not be welcomed at all That sounds a lot like what us Europeans did in North Africa not that long ago. We were indeed not welcomed.

Is the purpose of the comparison to show that it can indeed be a bad thing (i.e. you're simply agreeing with the parent), or implying that Europeans should be subject to the same treatment as punishment?

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#93

Post by Snow_Falls »

swat535 wrote: post #87
poly2it wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly believe Switzerland is at risk of an Islamic invasion? How do people on a platform such as HN fall for such obviously falsifiable statements? The initiative is obviously part of the global right-wing populist trend. Countries in the EU are dependent on immigration for maintaining their economies and public infrastructure as the population ages. I'm not Swiss, but the current government in Sweden has been…

I don't know if you've lived in an Islamic country but I have. In fact I was born there and spent more than half my life under Islamic law. More to it, I am the same brown minority that you seek to defend by posting this. Westerners are so naive, Islam's objective is to grow and convert as many people as possible. To this end, they have been building mosques all over the world, increasing their population and weaponi…

"I don't know if you've lived in an Islamic country but I have. In fact I was born there and spent more than half my life under Islamic law" are you aware that not all islamic countries are the same, just as all christian countries are not the same. Perhaps you've let your view of your bubble in your home country colour your view of all others. I've been to muslim countries, most people don't care all that much about the west - certainly not enough to make a conspiracy to destroy it with immigration or whatever.

"Islam's objective is to grow and convert as many people as possible" is it? says who? Why do you think there is one unified islam with one goal? As far as I'm aware, islam is not a prosetylising religion, who's out to convert who?

"building mosques all over the world" yes when a bunch of religious people are in a place, they build a place of worship. From your comment history, you're apparently iranian - what exactly is sinister about building mosques?

"increasing population" yes people like to do that, it's a rather enjoyable process, not exactly mindblowing thing to accuse people of.

"weaponizing immigration" how? who is doing that? are these governments deliberately sending people over? Who are they sending? Why has no leak of this conspirary ever happened? Are multiple governments independantly doing this?

"There is a reason Muslim countries don't allow Christians, Jews and other faiths to flourish in their homes." flourish in what sense? many muslim countries have other faiths there. These are the people of the book afterall. Some countries have sharia law that applies only to muslims - harsher laws only for the majority religion.

"No one is advocating for an immigration ban here, or is attempting to bar Muslims" Yes people are, don't be naive, this is absolutely about muslims.

"promoting family values" Or maybe the real reason people aren't having kids are climate anxiety and economic factors. It's not that people just suddenly hate families now. What do you even mean by "family values", send woman back to the kitchen and that'll make people have kids? I doubt that's what you mean so what is your solution?

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#94

Post by Snow_Falls »

palmaltd wrote: post #88
rendang wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> As those populations are known... What a horrible calumny to casually post on a ostensibly politically-neutral website! Absolutely shameful.

This website is notorious for these sorts of unexamined assumptions.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#95

Post by unsnap_biceps »

swat535 wrote: post #87
poly2it wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly believe Switzerland is at risk of an Islamic invasion? How do people on a platform such as HN fall for such obviously falsifiable statements? The initiative is obviously part of the global right-wing populist trend. Countries in the EU are dependent on immigration for maintaining their economies and public infrastructure as the population ages. I'm not Swiss, but the current government in Sweden has been…

I don't know if you've lived in an Islamic country but I have. In fact I was born there and spent more than half my life under Islamic law. More to it, I am the same brown minority that you seek to defend by posting this. Westerners are so naive, Islam's objective is to grow and convert as many people as possible. To this end, they have been building mosques all over the world, increasing their population and weaponi…

    Perhaps a better avenue is to focus inward and promoting family values instead of outwards to resolve the issue?
Inwards is the right answer, but it's not about lack of family values. It's the lack of stability and belief that people can give a good life to their offspring. We need to retreat from this capitalistic consume everything social structure and kids will naturally flow.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#96

Post by locallost »

hmokiguess wrote: post #39

I support that. If you tried doing the inverse, for example, migrate to an Islamic country and bring over Christianity there, you would not be welcomed at all. I’m an expat and one thing I’ve learned is to integrate myself with the culture of the country that adopted me, I believe this shows respect and that I am aligned with its values and principles.

This is the trap that the western world has set up for itself. You cannot destroy countries on the grounds that your society is better and that it's worth the destruction to make them be like yourself, and then at the same time say forget about it when it's time to actually be better and more tolerant.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#97

Post by Youden »

shafyy wrote: post #21
KellyCriterion wrote: post #7

Why shouldnt they be allowed to make a cap at 10M?

Because it's very likely against the Swiss constitution

"Against the Swiss constitution" doesn't really make sense here. This is a popular initiative; if accepted, it amends the Swiss constitution. Here's the text: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html

The only way you could argue an initiative is "against the Swiss constitution" in my opinion would be if it runs afoul of the rules: https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#tit_4/chap_2

Unless you want to argue that this violates the mandatory provisions of international law, I don't think you have an argument. The text of the amendment specifically clarifies that any of the actions it mandates on parliament have to adhere to the mandatory provisions of international law, so I don't think that's an avenue you can pursue.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#98

Post by nec4b »

Snow_Falls wrote: post #93
swat535 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've lived in an Islamic country but I have. In fact I was born there and spent more than half my life under Islamic law. More to it, I am the same brown minority that you seek to defend by posting this. Westerners are so naive, Islam's objective is to grow and convert as many people as possible. To this end, they have been building mosques all over the world, increasing their population and weaponi…

"I don't know if you've lived in an Islamic country but I have. In fact I was born there and spent more than half my life under Islamic law" are you aware that not all islamic countries are the same, just as all christian countries are not the same. Perhaps you've let your view of your bubble in your home country colour your view of all others. I've been to muslim countries, most people don't care all that much about…

>>"Islam's objective is to grow and convert as many people as possible" is it? says who?

Do you not learn anything about Islam in schools where you live? I'm sure you must have spent at least few hours at History class covering Islam expansion starting with Mohamed.

>> What do you even mean by "family values", send woman back to the kitchen and that'll make people have kids? I doubt that's what you mean so what is your solution?

You want more people from cultures who think exactly like that. You believe Muslim women should be baby factories for the West.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#99

Post by kelseyfrog »

rendang wrote: post #84
outside1234 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you are saying is that these places have not built enough housing. That sounds like the actual problem, not the population size.

I support YIMBYism for ones own countrymen but I don't see the need to fit as many people as possible in your country. A Switzerland with 25 million people will be a worse place to live regardless of whether the housing supply keeps up

Only the market can decide what's better or worse. Revealed preference is truer than words.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#100

Post by Youden »

outside1234 wrote: post #38
KellyCriterion wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate and send me the link to the relevant www.parlament.ch docs :)

Let’s pretend it’s within the constitution. How are they going to enforce this? For baby 10M+1 are they going to tell a Swiss woman that she can’t have a baby? In any case, this is definitely not conformant to the treaty that the Swiss have with the EU around rights of free movement.

The text of the initiative is here: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html

It's primarily an attempt to control immigration.

At 9.5M, the government has to start limiting the issuance of residence permits and start renegotiating international commitments that drive population growth.

At 10M, the government has to terminate the free movement agreement with the EU.

The right-leaning parties bring up something like this every few years. They always get shot down.

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