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The Day the Telnet Died

labs.greynoise.io

91–100 of 414 posts

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hams use it over packet radio sometimes since encryption is forbidden on the amateur bands. IMHO we need a good telnet replacement that sends signed data. Most people interpret signatures as allowed under FCC rules, just not encryption.

> IMHO we need a good telnet replacement that sends signed data. Most people interpret signatures as allowed under FCC rules, just not encryption. I know from bitter experience that IPsec is a “now you have two problems” kind of solution, but the Authentication Header is a thing and is supported by most (all?) implementations. Ham radio operators probably don’t have much use for the actual features of telnet compared…

TIL that IPsec can be used without encryption. That should work pretty well.

Telnet is mostly used for auth and straightforward terminal/BBS access in my experience. There are some other alternatives like HamSSH but I don’t think it’s that common.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are already unprivileged operations, but how does it start the initial process in that terminal with the correct privileges for a different user?

The kernel could authenticate the user before starting it.

How does it do that?

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#93

When I was an intern for some reason they issued me a voip phone for my desk. One day I got bored and figured out I could telnet into it. Nothing interesting but it was still a fun moment for me!

A very very long time ago as an intern I was working on a perl cgi script and I would often test it with telnet. I was used to messing around with hayes commands so manually typing in HTTP commands seemed like a natural extension of that.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#94
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a MUD enthusiast of two decades, this is not accurate. Where are you getting this information? Most MUDs implement RFC 854, and a number of non-standard Telnet option subnegotiation protocols have been adopted for compression (MCCP2), transmission of unrendered data (ATCP, GMCP, ZMP), and even a mechanism for enabling marking up the normal content using XML-style tags (MXP). These telopts build on the subnegotiati…

Yes, perhaps we should define “MUD” and your incomplete experience of “most”. As a MUD enthusiast for 37 years, I learned to program in C and Unix through TinyMUD, MUCK, and MUSH derived servers. From the beginning, none of these codebases implemted Telnet. There was nothing but a raw transparent TCP connection. In fact, I facilitated the introduction of a grand innovation: the "port concentrator" system which multip…

> [...] no, I am not confused, because I was giving an example of why the Telnet-implementation, the program, the client, was so inadequate for playing on MUD servers.

Then this is at the heart of our disconnect, because the post of mine that you originally replied to --- as well as, unless I drastically misread, the original article under discussion --- was concerned with traffic on port 23, the Telnet protocol port, and not with any particular implementation communicating on that port. The concern of my original comment was that this might affect MUDs that operate on port 23. Perhaps you can understand my confusion when you reply stating categorically that most MUDs do not use "Telnet" (meaning the program), when that wasn't really what was at concern (and therefore implied that my question had no basis).

It is a true fact that many MUDs operate on port 23. Many do not, but you can skim a MUD aggregator like MudConnect [0] to see that it is quite common. Aardwolf, Discworld MUD, and the IRE games --- which consistently topped TopMudSites (when that aggregator was still running, anyway) all operate on 23, potentially in addition to an unreserved port.

> what surprises me is that it is mandatory, and your clients don’t seem to interoperate without it? That is a strange reversal!

All telopts are disabled by default, per Telnet RFC; the only things you must absolutely parse under the RFC are the standard complement of NVT commands (such as IAC GA "Go Ahead"), even if they are otherwise implemented as no-ops.

Any input stream with the high bit clear is treated as pure data -- with the incidental exception of bare `\r`, which must always be followed either by `\n` or by `\0`; but Postel's Law has turned that into more of a guideline. So as long as the standard NVT encoding is assumed (which is just 7-bit ASCII) and the NVT core escape sequences are avoided, a modern Telnet-based MUD client can interoperate with a plaintext MUD server without issue. (As you know, this is also why people get away with using `telnet` (the program) to access HTTP and SMTP services instead of using something like netcat.)

Some MUD clients will eagerly send IAC DO / IAC WILL subnegotiations, but general practice is to let the server offer first -- probably precisely to ensure compatibility with MUDs that don't implement Telnet subnegotiations.

> Now as for the Diku, LP, and other “combat” type games, I’ve no idea

Diku-family MUDs are certainly the ones I have the most experience with. I understand LP MUDs also generally have Telnet support; or at least, I recall seeing a patch for them that MUD owners often sought to apply to their games.

[0]: https://www.mudconnect.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?mode=tmc_bigli...

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#95

Why are people still using telnet across the internet in this century? Was this _all_ attack traffic? (OK, I know one ancient talker that uses it - but on a very non-standard port so a port 23 block wouldn't be relevant)

[deleted]

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#96
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a MUD enthusiast of two decades, this is not accurate. Where are you getting this information? Most MUDs implement RFC 854, and a number of non-standard Telnet option subnegotiation protocols have been adopted for compression (MCCP2), transmission of unrendered data (ATCP, GMCP, ZMP), and even a mechanism for enabling marking up the normal content using XML-style tags (MXP). These telopts build on the subnegotiati…

Yes, perhaps we should define “MUD” and your incomplete experience of “most”. As a MUD enthusiast for 37 years, I learned to program in C and Unix through TinyMUD, MUCK, and MUSH derived servers. From the beginning, none of these codebases implemted Telnet. There was nothing but a raw transparent TCP connection. In fact, I facilitated the introduction of a grand innovation: the "port concentrator" system which multip…

The modern MUSH forks do generally support telnet, but yes -- as a 29 year old who's been pathologically obsessed with "MUD archeology" off and on, I'll confirm -- historically, most MUDs did not do any sort of Telnet negotiation.

Further, most older clients did not anticipate any kind of Telnet negotiation from the server, and will print garbage to the screen if connecting to modern MUSHes that do. (I've tested tinywar, vt, and that one VMS client...)

MUCKs never, to my knowledge, implemented telnet, though. They barely support ANSI escapes, nevermind Telnet. :-)

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#98

The design of telnet and ssh where you have a daemon running as root is bad security that as shown here is a liability, a ticking time bomb ready to give attackers root.

Oldschool telnetd didn’t actually run as root; rather, it just set up a PTY for the incoming socket to talk to, and then fork-exec’ed a /bin/login subprocess to live inside that pty. /bin/login is setuid-root, so it’s “where the security lived.”

I think we all collectively decided that that was a bad idea at some point — probably because /bin/login was never designed under the assumption that it would have to deal with arbitrary binary network traffic being thrown at it (it really only expects keyboard input.) So we switched to doing auth directly in our network daemons, since at least then “people who are aware the code is network-facing” would be maintaining it.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#99

The scope of this CVE and the response to it are genuinely wild. It's crazy to think that some dude is singlehandedly responsible for ultimately ending the telnet era in such a definitive way. One for the history books.

>some dude is singlehandedly responsible

Well, one person to put up the PR and one dude to approve it - back in 2015. It isn't the security researcher's fault.

Re: The Day the Telnet Died

#100
post #49

This is about Telnetd. Not telnet itself.

...except that port 23 seems to now be filtered across the internet at large, leading to a huge drop-off in telnet traffic over the course of days if not hours. I think it's safe to say that even if you patch telnetd, being able to use telnet over the internet is not possible in many places (including Canada, according to the data).

I wonder if simply moving to a nearby port would work. I assume only port TCP/23 is filtered instead of filtering the telnet protocol itself.
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