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Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
91–100 of 200 posts
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had a relatively recent graphics card (5 years old perhaps?). I don't care about 3D or games, or whatever. So I was sad not to be able to run a text editor (let's be honest, Zed is nice but it's just displaying text). And somehow the non-accelerated version is eating 24 cores. Just for text. https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/discussions/23623 I ended up buying a new graphics card in the end. I just wish everyon…
The fact that we need advanced GPU acceleration for a text editor is concerning.
Such is life when built-in laptop displays are now pushing a billion pixels per second, rendering anything on the CPU adds up fast.
Sublime Text spent over a decade tuning their CPU renderer and it still didn't cut it at high resolutions.
https://www.sublimetext.com/blog/articles/hardware-accelerat...
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, the folks in here recommending Debian as a solution to this problem are insane. I love Debian, it's a great distro. It's NOT the distro I'd pick to drive things like my laptop or personal development machine. At least not if you have even a passing interest in: - Using team communication apps (slack/teams/discord) - Using software built for windows (Wine/Proton) - Gaming (of any form) - Wayland support (or any…
Debian has multiple editions, if you want Arch, go for sid/testing. Stable is stable as in "must not be broken at all costs" kind of stable. basically everything works just fine. there's occasionally a rare crash or gnome reset where you need to login again, but other than that not many problems.
Again, I like Debian a lot as a distro (much more than Ubuntu), but it's just not the same as a distro like Arch, even when you're on testing. Sid is close, but between Arch and sid... I've actually found fewer issues on Arch, and since there's an existing expectation that the community maintains and documents much of the software in AUR, there's almost always someone actually paying attention and updating things, rather than only getting around to it later.
It's not that Debian is a bad release, but it's the difference in a game on steam being completely unavailable for a few hours (Arch) or 10 days (Debian testing) due to an upstream issue.
I swapped a while back, mostly because I kept hitting issues that are accurately described and resolved by steps coming from Arch's community, even on distros like Debian and Fedora.
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The power in debian is still that Ubuntu has made it very popular for folks doing commercial/closed source releases to provide a .deb by default. Won't always work... but at least they're targeting your distro (or almost always, ubuntu, but usually close enough).
Same for Fedora with the Redhat enterprise connections.
But I've generally found that the community in Arch is doing a better job at actually dogfooding, testing, and fixing the commercial software than most of the companies that release it... which is sad, but reality.
Arch has plenty of its own issues, but "Stale software" isn't the one to challenge it on. Much better giving it a pass due to arch/platform support limitations, security or stability needs, etc... All those are entirely valid critiques, and reasonable drivers for sticking to something like Debian.
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#94I wish they would just allow us to push everything to GPU as buffer pointers, like buffer_device address extension allows you to, and then reconstruct the data to your required format via shaders. The GPU programming seems to be both super low level, but also high level, cause textures and descriptors need these ultra specific data format's, and then the way you construct and upload those formats are very complicated…
I’m not watching Rust as closely as I once did, but it seems like buffer ownership is something it should be leaning on more fully.
There’s an old concurrency pattern where a producer and consumer tag team on two sets of buffers to speed up throughput. Producer fills a buffer, transfers ownership to the consumer, and is given the previous buffer in return.
It is structurally similar to double buffered video, but for any sort of data.
It seems like Rust would be good for proving the soundness. And it should be a library now rather than a roll your own.
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Ubuntu LTS This is why I try to encourage new Linux users away from Ubuntu: it's a laggard with, often important, functionality. It is now an enterprise OS (where durability is more important than functionality), it's not really suitable for a power user (like someone who would use Zed).
My understanding with Mesa is that it has very few dependencies and is ABI stable, so freezing Mesa updates is counterproductive. I'm not sure about Snaps, but Flatpak ships as it's own system managing Mesa versions.
> My understanding with Mesa is that it has very few dependencies
Some of the shader compilers require LLVM which is a giant dependency to say the least. But with Valve's ACO for RADV I think that could technically be omitted.
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, the folks in here recommending Debian as a solution to this problem are insane. I love Debian, it's a great distro. It's NOT the distro I'd pick to drive things like my laptop or personal development machine. At least not if you have even a passing interest in: - Using team communication apps (slack/teams/discord) - Using software built for windows (Wine/Proton) - Gaming (of any form) - Wayland support (or any…
I think Debian Stable, Ubuntu LTS, and derivatives thereof are particularly poor fits for general consumers who are more likely to try to run the OS on a random machine they picked up from Best Buy that’s probably built with hardware that kernels any older than what ships in Fedora are unlikely to support. The stable/testing/etc distinction doesn't really help, either, because it's an alien concept to those outside o…
I find this a very reasonable take.
I'll add - I think the complexity is somewhat "over-stated" for Arch at this point. There was absolutely a period where just reading the entire install guide (much less actually completing it) was enough to turn a large number of even fairly technical people off the distro. Archinstall removed a lot of that headache.
And once it's up, it's generally just fine. I moved both my spouse and my children to Arch instead of Windows 11, and they don't seem particularly bothered. They install most of their own software using flatpaks through the store GUI in Gnome, or through Steam, the browser does most of the heavy lifting these days anyways.
I basically just grab their machine and run `pacman -Syu` on it once in a while, and help install something more complicated once in a blue moon.
Still requires someone who doesn't mind dropping into a terminal, but it's definitely not what I'd consider "all that challenging".
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bizarre take. Notice how that WebGPU is an AndroidX library? That means WebGPU API support is built into apps via that library and runs on top of the system's Vulkan or OpenGL ES API. Do you work for Google or an Android OEM? If not, you have no basis to make the claim that Android will cease updating Vulkan API support.
I did not do such claim. WebGPU on Android runs on top of Vulkan. If you knew about 3D programming on Android, you would know that there are ongoing efforts to have only Vulkan, with OpenGL ES on top. However Java and Kotlin devs refuse to bother with the NDK for Vulkan, and keep reaching for OpenGL ES instead. Please refer to Google talks on Vulkanised conferences.
Is it possible to support OpenGL on top of Vulkan well? It has been pointed out that Vulkan requires you to completely freeze and compile a graphics pipeline before using it, while OpenGL's state machine is more flexible, and the underlying hardware is somewhat more amenable to these state transitions at runtime, than the Vulkan API would suggest.
Don't these compatibility layers run into issues with constant pipeline recompilation related performance issues, when emulating OpenGL?
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think Debian Stable, Ubuntu LTS, and derivatives thereof are particularly poor fits for general consumers who are more likely to try to run the OS on a random machine they picked up from Best Buy that’s probably built with hardware that kernels any older than what ships in Fedora are unlikely to support. The stable/testing/etc distinction doesn't really help, either, because it's an alien concept to those outside o…
I find this a very reasonable take. I'll add - I think the complexity is somewhat "over-stated" for Arch at this point. There was absolutely a period where just reading the entire install guide (much less actually completing it) was enough to turn a large number of even fairly technical people off the distro. Archinstall removed a lot of that headache. And once it's up, it's generally just fine. I moved both my spous…
YMMV, but the issue I usually run into with Arch is that unless you watch patch notes like a hawk, updates will break random things every so often, which I found quite frustrating. The risk of this increases the longer the system goes without updates due to accumlated missing config file migrations and such.
Even as someone who uses the terminal daily it's more involved than I really care for.
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#99Uuugh, graphics. So many smart people expending great energy to look busy while doing nothing particularly profound. Graphics people, here is what you need to do. 1) Figure out a machine abstraction. 2) Figure out an abstraction for how these machines communicate with each other and the cpu on a shared memory bus. 3) Write a binary spec for code for this abstract machine. 4) Compilers target this abstract machine. 5)…
some of this is what's khronos standards are theoretically supposed to achieve.
surprise, it's very difficult to do across many hw vendors and classes of devices. it's not a coincidence that metal is much easier to program for.
maybe consider joining khronos since you apparently know exactly how to achieve this very simple goal...
Re: Simplifying Vulkan one subsystem at a time
#100The main problem with Vulkan isn't the programming model or the lack of features. These are tackled by Khronos. The problem is with coverage and update distribution. It's all over the place! If you develop general purpose software (like Zed), you can't assume that even the basic things like dynamic rendering are supported uniformly. There are always weird systems with old drivers (looking at Ubuntu 22 LTS), hardware…
> Ubuntu LTS This is why I try to encourage new Linux users away from Ubuntu: it's a laggard with, often important, functionality. It is now an enterprise OS (where durability is more important than functionality), it's not really suitable for a power user (like someone who would use Zed).
Ubuntu's perfectly fine if you avoid LTS versions.