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The New Collabora Office for Desktop

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Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#91

Post by einpoklum »

cxr wrote: post #69
einpoklum wrote: post #43

There has been a conflict building up within the LibreOffice ecosystem, with Collabora publishing a desktop version of their web-focused LO-based suite, while TDF (The Document Foundation) has decided to hire several developers to work on an on-line and potentially mobile version. So, essentially, both "sides" are taking each other on, even though a plurality of LibreOffice commits are made by Collabora employees. Th…

> the charter of projects like LibreOffice are fundamentally broken—they're aiming to replace Microsoft Office by cloning it, but Microsoft Office itself is part of a busted paradigm https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24759573 > > The LibreOffice project's imprimatur should be to stop existing[…] The editing paradigm perpetuated by the legacy of MS Office is a dead end. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23795918…

I don't know about paradigms and stuff, but I do know that office productivity apps - document writer, spreadsheet, presentation and the others - put together are the second most used 'app' on a PC/laptop after a browser. And that's probably true for just the document writer alone.

I'm a big fan of plaintext (and things like Markdown). But I don't buy the argument that "plain text over the web is the future" or that that combination can or should supplant office.

Also remember that LibreOffice started before Microsoft Office even existed: as StarWriter in the mid-1980s. Yes, there has been a lot of borrowing between computer apps in this domain (and let's also not forget WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3 etc.); and I am even willing to entertain the possibility that in 40 years' time we will all be doing something completely different. I mean, I still think people will be writing letters and CVs and reports but maybe the apps would be very different. Anyway, until that time, we need a decent office app, with support for the world's many written languages and their quirks, without spying on users, with multi-platform support, with a decent license etc. - and LibreOffice is that.

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#92

Post by zapzupnz »

realityfactchex wrote: post #90
zapzupnz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A study from 16 years ago is hardly relevant anymore. Back in 2003, people were still familiar with Office 2003's layout; most people have long since forgotten that layout or never learnt it in the first place. The author doesn't discuss users' existing familiarity with Office 2003 and they only mention the word 'training' once, that "software design to interact with technology should require the least amount of trai…

>> the study with respect to the Excel 2007 application persists...can be repeated with users having...years using this version. > Do you know if the author or anybody else followed up I would love to see more recent and similarly thoughtful work on the exact same subject. If I find more, I'll try to remember to come back here and comment. Definitely, I am interested in the clearest evidence regarding whether either…

I suspect any such studies these days will be Office vs Google Docs vs iWork vs LibreOffice. Mind boggles how that data will look!

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#93

Post by 1718627440 »

ack_complete wrote: post #62
Kwpolska wrote: post #50

I installed it from Windows Store, opened a blank text document, and the styles box appears to contain white text on a white background. I opened a blank spreadsheet, typed in something, tried to create a pivot table, and it only expanded the selection without showing the dialog box. I restarted it and those bugs were fixed, but the Pivot Table UI is still the ugly non-interactive one found in LibreOffice (which Exce…

Yeah, unfortunately this seems to combine the UI and performance issues of LibreOffice with new issues from the new front end. It also has a basic mistake in text editor UX: the caret blinks independently of caret movement. This means that the caret is invisible half of the time while trying to navigate text. Most text editors avoid this by restarting the blink cycle to force the caret visible on each movement.

> It also has a basic mistake in text editor UX: the caret blinks independently of caret movement. This means that the caret is invisible half of the time while trying to navigate text. Most text editors avoid this by restarting the blink cycle to force the caret visible on each movement.

It doesn't do that on my computer. LibreOffice 7.0.4.2 shipped with GNU/Linux Debian.

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#94

Post by upboundspiral »

tomtomistaken wrote: post #39
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #34

Honestly, OnlyOffice works extremely well for my purposes, and I install it on all my friends' PCs. It looks a lot like MS Office and is quite compatible with a variety of documents I've tried, in my experience.

OnlyOffice is nice if you ignore the Russian background of it. I wouldn't trust it. https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyFromEU/comments/1j7zlf2/onlyoffi...

I stopped using it more for technical reasons but when I was using it I installed it as a flatpak and removed network access.

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#95

Post by drzaiusx11 »

tiahura wrote: post #24

Why doesn't Amazon adopt libreoffice?

From my understanding Amazon at least internally uses Salesforce's Quip product which is closer to Google docs than office (live collab). There's still MS office use as well depending on org. Just curious, were you suggesting libreoffice as a cost savings measure or are you just sick of Quip?

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#96

Post by ack_complete »

1718627440 wrote: post #93
ack_complete wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, unfortunately this seems to combine the UI and performance issues of LibreOffice with new issues from the new front end. It also has a basic mistake in text editor UX: the caret blinks independently of caret movement. This means that the caret is invisible half of the time while trying to navigate text. Most text editors avoid this by restarting the blink cycle to force the caret visible on each movement.

> It also has a basic mistake in text editor UX: the caret blinks independently of caret movement. This means that the caret is invisible half of the time while trying to navigate text. Most text editors avoid this by restarting the blink cycle to force the caret visible on each movement. It doesn't do that on my computer. LibreOffice 7.0.4.2 shipped with GNU/Linux Debian.

Standard LibreOffice Writer doesn't have the issue for me either, only the version shipped in Collabora Office for Desktop.

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#97

Post by drzaiusx11 »

tomtomistaken wrote: post #57
defrim wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a devout supporter of Ukraine, I'm not sure it's fair to denounce the FOSS version of the app just because it was built by developers that reside in Russia. We all know that the company outwardly stating "we are against the invasion of Ukraine" wouldn't end well for them, and as long as you're not paying for it, I don't see a huge difference using this vs. your average American software (in which the developers al…

It’s about trusting the build. You can’t always know what happened between source and release.

I'd trust a Linux distro build of a Russian FOSS product a bit more than a windows binary from their website. So trust here is context dependent, at least for me. I still use Audacity for example and it has similar ownership issues.

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#98

Post by andai »

zapzupnz wrote: post #86
realityfactchex wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most regular users would...have their productivity reduced...this matters for the paying customers...using it in a work environment If the concern is business productivity, then it might be interesting to read that at least some research indicates (perhaps counterintuitively to some) that classic style is better: "...results indicate that Excel 2003 is significantly superior to Excel 2007 in all the dependent varia…

A study from 16 years ago is hardly relevant anymore. Back in 2003, people were still familiar with Office 2003's layout; most people have long since forgotten that layout or never learnt it in the first place. The author doesn't discuss users' existing familiarity with Office 2003 and they only mention the word 'training' once, that "software design to interact with technology should require the least amount of trai…

Well, to get a really balanced UX research sample, you must invoke the full trifecta:

- The Zoomer

- The Boomer

- The Clanker

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#99

Post by kwanbix »

0x1ch wrote: post #66
realityfactchex wrote: post #65

First of all, I love LibreOffice very much as the last bastion of sanity in classic document suites, and I love what Collabora is trying to do with the online piece. So, first, a million thanks. Truly. Now, to put on the the "feedback is a gift" and "radical transparency" caps. From the screenshot comparison in TFA: The new one looks all Microsoft-Ribbony. That's a huge step backward. The big strength of LibreOffice…

At least to me, it seems most regular users would struggle and have their productivity reduced attempting to learn a new word processing UI. Everyone and their extended family has been trained on Microsoft products, with Microsoft UI design. I think this matters for the paying customers of things like Collabora and LibreOffice, as they're using it in a work environment. Not at home.

I have worked in 3 companies in the last 8 years and we all use gsuite just fine. I will even say that I really prefer gsuite over office365 web.

Re: The New Collabora Office for Desktop

#100

Post by cxr »

einpoklum wrote: post #91
cxr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the charter of projects like LibreOffice are fundamentally broken—they're aiming to replace Microsoft Office by cloning it, but Microsoft Office itself is part of a busted paradigm https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24759573 > > The LibreOffice project's imprimatur should be to stop existing[…] The editing paradigm perpetuated by the legacy of MS Office is a dead end. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23795918…

I don't know about paradigms and stuff, but I do know that office productivity apps - document writer, spreadsheet, presentation and the others - put together are the second most used 'app' on a PC/laptop after a browser. And that's probably true for just the document writer alone. I'm a big fan of plaintext (and things like Markdown). But I don't buy the argument that "plain text over the web is the future" or that…

> I don't buy the argument that "plain text over the web is the future"

Good thing no one is making that argument. That's a fabricated quote.

> the second most used 'app' on a PC/laptop after a browser

This is supposed to be a rejoinder? You're just undergirding the thing that you're purporting to respond to—that when it comes to the dominance (or, if you prefer, relative importance) of actual multi-/cross-platform ease-of-access between browsers versus 90s-era suites like MS Office and LibreOffice, the office suites lose.

> until that time, we need a decent office app, with support for the world's many written languages and their quirks, without spying on users, with multi-platform support, with a decent license

We do need that. Which is why I described it. And LibreOffice is in a worse position than it should be with respect to filling this hole because of its failure to embrace the actual multi-/cross-platform and ease-of-access benefits afforded by the ubiquity of standard Web browsers and the formats they understand, contra the formats that the 90s-era office suites produce (useless to anyone who doesn't have that office suite or a quasi-compatible one installed).

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