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X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

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Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#91

Post by chrisjj »

logicchains wrote: post #39
tokai wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what world is generating CSAM a speech issue? Its really doing a disservice to actual free speech issues to frame it was such.

The point of banning real CSAM is to stop the production of it, because the production is inherently harmful. The production of AI or human generated CSAM-like images does not inherently require the harm of children, so it's fundamentally a different consideration. That's why some countries, notably Japan, allow the production of hand-drawn material that in the US would be considered CSAM.

> The point of banning real CSAM is to stop the production of it, because the production is inherently harmful. The production of AI or human generated CSAM-like images does not inherently require the harm of children, so it's fundamentally a different consideration.

Quite.

> That's why some countries, notably Japan, allow the production of hand-drawn material that in the US would be considered CSAM.

Really? By what US definition of CSAM?

https://rainn.org/get-the-facts-about-csam-child-sexual-abus...

"Child sexual abuse material (CSAM) is not “child pornography.” It’s evidence of child sexual abuse—and it’s a crime to create, distribute, or possess. "

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#92

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

vessenes wrote: post #87
StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very different charges however. Durov was held on suspicion Telegram was willingly failing to moderate its platform and allowed drug trafficking and other illegal activities to take place. X has allegedly illegally sent data to the US in violation of GDPR and contributed to child porn distribution. Note that both are directly related to direct violation of data safety law or association with a separate criminal activ…

I like your username, by the way. CSAM was the lead in the 2024 news headlines in the French prosecution of Telegram also. I didn't follow the case enough to know where they went, or what the judge thought was credible. From a US mindset, I'd say that generation of communication, including images, would fall under speech. But then we classify it very broadly here. Arranging drug deals on a messaging app definitely fa…

The issue is still not really speech.

Durov wasn't arrested because of things he said or things that were said on his platform, he was arrested because he refused to cooperate in criminal investigations while he allegedly knew they were happening on a platform he manages.

If you own a bar, you know people are dealing drugs in the backroom and you refuse to assist the police, you are guilty of aiding and abetting. Well, it's the same for Durov except he apparently also helped them process the money.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#94

Post by drcongo »

chrisjj wrote: post #12
mortarion wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSAM does not have a universal definition. In Sweden for instance, CSAM is any image of an underage subject (real or realistic digital) designed to evoke a sexual response. If you take a picture of a 14 year old girl (age of consent is 15) and use Grok to give her bikini, or make her topless, then you are most definately producing and possessing CSAM. No abuse of a real minor is needed.

> CSAM does not have a universal definition. Strange that there was no disagreement before "AI", right? Yet now we have a clutch of new "definitions" all of which dilute and weaken the meaning. > In Sweden for instance, CSAM is any image of an underage subject (real or realistic digital) designed to evoke a sexual response. No corroboration found on web. Quite the contrary, in fact: "Sweden does not have a legislativ…

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#95

Post by Bender »

SilverElfin wrote: post #93

[flagged]

In my opinion I think the reason they raided the offices for CSAM would be there are laws on the books for CSAM and not for social manipulation. If people could be jailed for manipulation there would be no social media platforms, lobbyists, political campaign groups or advertisements. People are already being manipulated by AI.

On a related note given AI is just a tool and requires someone to tell it to make CSAM I think they will have to prove intent possibly by grabbing chat logs, emails and other internal communications but I know very little about French law or international law.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#96

Post by SilverElfin »

Bender wrote: post #95
SilverElfin wrote: post #93

[flagged]

In my opinion I think the reason they raided the offices for CSAM would be there are laws on the books for CSAM and not for social manipulation. If people could be jailed for manipulation there would be no social media platforms, lobbyists, political campaign groups or advertisements. People are already being manipulated by AI. On a related note given AI is just a tool and requires someone to tell it to make CSAM I t…

Given America passed PAFACA (intended to ban TikTok, which Trump instead put in hands of his friends), I would think Europe would also have a similar law. Is that not the case?

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#97

Post by cwillu »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #77
cwillu wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If libeling real people is a harm to those people, then altering photos of real children is certainly also a harm to those children.

I'm strongly against CSAM but I will say this analogy doesn't quite hold (though the values behind it does) Libel must be as assertion that is not true. Photoshopping or AIing someone isn't an assertion of something untrue. It's more the equivalent of saying "What if this is true?" which is perfectly legal

“ 298 (1) A defamatory libel is matter published, without lawful justification or excuse, that is likely to injure the reputation of any person by exposing him to hatred, contempt or ridicule, or that is designed to insult the person of or concerning whom it is published.

    Marginal note:Mode of expression

    (2) A defamatory libel may be expressed directly or by insinuation or irony

        (a) in words legibly marked on any substance; or

        (b) by any object signifying a defamatory libel otherwise than by words.”
It doesn't have to be an assertion, or even a written statement.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#98

Post by rsynnott »

chrisjj wrote: post #83
techblueberry wrote: post #27

I'm not saying I'm entirely against this, but just out of curiosity, what do they hope to find in a raid of the french offices, a folder labeled "Grok's CSAM Plan"?

[flagged]

Item one in that list is CSAM.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#99

Post by Bender »

SilverElfin wrote: post #96
Bender wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion I think the reason they raided the offices for CSAM would be there are laws on the books for CSAM and not for social manipulation. If people could be jailed for manipulation there would be no social media platforms, lobbyists, political campaign groups or advertisements. People are already being manipulated by AI. On a related note given AI is just a tool and requires someone to tell it to make CSAM I t…

Given America passed PAFACA (intended to ban TikTok, which Trump instead put in hands of his friends), I would think Europe would also have a similar law. Is that not the case?

Are you talking about this [1]? I don't know the answer to your question whether or not the EU has the same policy. That is talking about control by a foreign adversary.

I think that would delve into whether or not the USA would be considered a foreign adversary to France. I was under the impression we were allies since like the 1800s or so despite some little tiffs now and again.

[1] - https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#100

Post by chrisjj »

rsynnott wrote: post #98
chrisjj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Item one in that list is CSAM.

You are mistaken. Item #1 is "images of children of a pornographic nature".

Wheras "CSAM isn’t pornography—it’s evidence of criminal exploitation of kids." https://rainn.org/get-informed/get-the-facts-about-sexual-vi...

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