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Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

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Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#91

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

> packages like GNOME and soon KDE's Plasma are building in requirements that require capabilities in systemd

So drop them. There are other desktops that are faster, simpler, more stable, and aren't hard-coded to make Linux worse. Has everyone forgotten the design principles that made Linux good in the first place? Tightly coupling your software into other software is simply bad design. At some point you need to eat the cost of a looser abstraction to make your system less fragile, easier to reason about, and more compatible.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#93

Post by nomel »

kevstev wrote: post #30
spudlyo wrote: post #11

That's funny, I did LFS a few years ago and specifically chose the systemd version so I could better understand it. I don't think this is a huge deal, I believe the older versions of the document that include SysVinit will still be available for a long time to come, and people who want it will figure out how to muddle through. If at some point in the future things diverge to such a point where that that becomes unten…

Didn't you find though that systemd was just a black box? I was hoping to learn more about it as well- and I did manage to get a fully baked LFS CLI system up and running, and it was just like "ok install systemd..." and now... it just goes. Sysv at least gave you a peak under the covers when you used it, and while it may have given people headaches and lacked some functionality, was IMHO simple to understand. Of cou…

> "ok install systemd..." and now... it just goes.

I believe it's `systemctl list-unit-files` to see all the config that's executed, included by the distro, and then if you want to see the whole hierarchy `systemd-analyze dot | dot -Tpng -o stuff.png`

To me, seems much easier to understand what's actually going on, and one of the benefits of config as data rather than config as scripts.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#94

Post by ripdog »

its_magic wrote: post #77
clintfred wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With limited resources, sometimes practicality needs to win. Kudos to Bruce for putting aside his (valid) feelings on the subject and doing what is best for the team and community overall.

I disagree. I will soon be releasing a distro that is free of systemd, wayland, dbus, and other troublesome software. It is built starting from LFS in 2019, and now consists of over 1,500 packages, cross compiling to x86-32/64, powerpc32/64, and others if I had hardware to test. It's built entirely from shell scripts which are clean, organized, and easy to read. I need help to get the system ready for release in 60-9…

So, devuan?

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#95

Post by josephg »

ktm5j wrote: post #75
cientifico wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Github says 2.8k files when selecting c (including headers...) https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Asystemd%2Fsystemd++langua... If the project is even split in different parts that you need to understand... already makes the point.

Well to be fair, you don't need to understand how SystemD is built to know how to use it. Unit files are pretty easy to wrap your head around, it took me a while to adjust but I dig it now. To make an analogy: another part of LFS is building a compiler toolchain. You don't need to understand GCC internals to know how to do that.

> Well to be fair, you don't need to understand how SystemD is built to know how to use it.

The attitude that you don't need to learn what is inside the magic black box is exactly the kind of thing LFS is pushing against. UNIX traditionally was a "worse is better" system, where its seen as better design to have a simple system that you can understand the internals of even if that simplicity leads to bugs. Simple systems that fit the needs of the users can evolve into complex systems that fit the needs of users. But you (arguably) can't start with a complex system that people don't use and get users.

If anyone hasn't read the full Worse Is Better article before, its your lucky day:

https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#96

Post by adastra22 »

clintfred wrote: post #6
cf100clunk wrote: post #2

This is a mindblower. To quote Bruce Dubbs: ''As a personal note, I do not like this decision. To me LFS is about learning how a system works. Understanding the boot process is a big part of that. systemd is about 1678 "C" files plus many data files. System V is "22" C files plus about 50 short bash scripts and data files. Yes, systemd provides a lot of capabilities, but we will be losing some things I consider impor…

With limited resources, sometimes practicality needs to win. Kudos to Bruce for putting aside his (valid) feelings on the subject and doing what is best for the team and community overall.

How is this best? It defeats the whole point. I’m going to stop recommending LFS to people wanting to learn about this stuff.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#97

Post by M95D »

its_magic wrote: post #77
clintfred wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With limited resources, sometimes practicality needs to win. Kudos to Bruce for putting aside his (valid) feelings on the subject and doing what is best for the team and community overall.

I disagree. I will soon be releasing a distro that is free of systemd, wayland, dbus, and other troublesome software. It is built starting from LFS in 2019, and now consists of over 1,500 packages, cross compiling to x86-32/64, powerpc32/64, and others if I had hardware to test. It's built entirely from shell scripts which are clean, organized, and easy to read. I need help to get the system ready for release in 60-9…

How did you get GTK3/4 to work without dbus?

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#98

Post by adastra22 »

ktm5j wrote: post #75
cientifico wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Github says 2.8k files when selecting c (including headers...) https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Asystemd%2Fsystemd++langua... If the project is even split in different parts that you need to understand... already makes the point.

Well to be fair, you don't need to understand how SystemD is built to know how to use it. Unit files are pretty easy to wrap your head around, it took me a while to adjust but I dig it now. To make an analogy: another part of LFS is building a compiler toolchain. You don't need to understand GCC internals to know how to do that.

The whole point of LFS is to understand how the thing works.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#99

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

byte_0 wrote: post #50

From a completely technical standpoint, is systemd really better than SysVInit? I ask this question in good faith. I have used both and had no problems with either, although for personal preference, I am more traditional and favor SysVInit.

One is not better than the other because they exist to solve different problems. Are sandals technically better than snowshoes?

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#100

Post by its_magic »

ripdog wrote: post #94
its_magic wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I will soon be releasing a distro that is free of systemd, wayland, dbus, and other troublesome software. It is built starting from LFS in 2019, and now consists of over 1,500 packages, cross compiling to x86-32/64, powerpc32/64, and others if I had hardware to test. It's built entirely from shell scripts which are clean, organized, and easy to read. I need help to get the system ready for release in 60-9…

So, devuan?

No, not even close. Totally different projects. This one is for experts only, or those who want to become experts. The type of person who has been toying with the idea of building a LFS system but doesn't really want to go through all the work and headache (and it's a ton, to build a full system.) It also supports cross compiling to other architectures, which LFS does not.

This system has many powerful features like built in ccache/distcc support for the build, support for building in QEMU, etc. Eventually it will be fully sandboxed.

There is a heavy emphasis on Doing Things Right according to an old school way of thinking. Everything is kept as simple as possible, yet as full featured as is practical. A major goal is to have everything documented and explained, starting with the shell scripts which build the system step by step in an easy to follow manner.

No package manager currently, though a simple one is in the works which is integrated into the build scripts. It's not really needed. You just build a complete system with all packages you want installed in a single run, with your own configuration pre-loaded. This gets compressed to a tarball. Then to install, create a partition, extract the tarball, edit a few files, install the bootloader, set passwords, and go.

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