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Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

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Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#91
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Wayland "feel like the future?" It feels like a regression to me and a lot of other people who have run into serious usability problems. At best, it seems like a huge diversion of time and resources, given that we already had a working GUI. (Maybe that was the intention.) The arguments for it have boiled down to "yuck code older than me" from supposed professionals employed by commercial Linux vendors to sup…

I've been on and off linux desktops since the advent of Wayland. Unsure of the actual issues people run into at this point outside of very niche workflows or applications, to which, there are X11 fallbacks for. Also, by "commercial linux vendors", you do realize Wayland is directly supported (afaik, correct me if wrong) by the largest commercial linux contributors, Red Hat, Canoncial. They're not simply 'vendors'.

> Unsure of the actual issues people run into at this point outside of very niche workflows or applications, to which, there are X11 fallbacks for.

I don't know if others have experienced this but the biggest bug I see in Wayland right now is sometimes on an external monitor after waking the computer, a full-screen electron window will crash the display (ie the display disconnects).

I can usually fix this by switching to another desktop and then logging out and logging back in.

Such a strange bug because it only affects my external monitor and only affects electron apps (I notice it with VSCode the most but that's just cause I have it running virtually 24/7)

If anyone has encountered this issue and figured out a solution i am all ears.

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you hope they abandon GTK? What would you have them replace it with?

Enlightenment. No, really. If they ever move away from GTK (due to the GNOME shenanigans GNOME-izing GTK) I wish Englightenment and Xfce were together a single thing. But that's if I could ask the Tux genie three wishes.

Hell I wish EFL was more used in general. I was thinking QT (mainly because I forgot about EFL) but that's much better

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#93
As someone that is sensitive to displays, one of the best features of XFCE, unlike others desktops, is that it doesn't cause eye strain, probably because it doesn't play tricks - a pixel at a certain color is stable, and not dithered(if you choose) and higher level primitives are also stable and don't play time/frequency based games.

I hope XFCE preserves this, it is a killer feature in today's world.

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#94

Isn't the switch from X11 to Wayland the most painful switch that happened in the linux world ? Even going from python 2 to 3 was not as bad

The move from kernel 2.4.x to 2.6.x was pretty painful. The absolute slog from 2.6 to 3.0 and a development model that a least somewhat resembles the model used today was exhausting.

In case you weren't there, the "even" kernels (e.g. 2.0, 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6) were the stable series while the "odd" kernels (e.g. 2.1, 2.3, 2.5) were the development series, the development model was absolutely mental and development moved at a glacial pace compared to today's breakneck speed.

The pre-git days were less than ideal. The BitKepper years were... interesting, politically and philosophically speaking.

Also, KDE4 was a dark, dark period.

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Wayland "feel like the future?" It feels like a regression to me and a lot of other people who have run into serious usability problems. At best, it seems like a huge diversion of time and resources, given that we already had a working GUI. (Maybe that was the intention.) The arguments for it have boiled down to "yuck code older than me" from supposed professionals employed by commercial Linux vendors to sup…

Even if you dislike Wayland, forwards-going development is clearly centred around it. Development of X11 has largely ended and the major desktop environments and several mainstream Linux distributions are likewise ending support for it. There is one effort I know of to revive and modernize X11 but it’s both controversial and also highly niche. You don’t have to like the future for it to be the future.

Actually multiple including Phoenix a re-implementation, running an x wm under Wayland via Wayback in addition to xlibre

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you mean by send. Wayland doesn't have network transparency, there's a bit of a song and dance you have to do to get that working properly. I'm not sure the state of that or of Wayland compositors in general on Mac.

> It depends on what you mean by send. Currently I can: $ ssh -X somehost xeyes and get a window on macOS.

Today you would do:

`$ waypipe ssh somehost foot`

You need waypipe installed on both machines. For the Mac, I guess you'll need something like cocoa-way (https://github.com/J-x-Z/cocoa-way). Some local Wayland compositor, anyway.

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#97
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Wayland "feel like the future?" It feels like a regression to me and a lot of other people who have run into serious usability problems. At best, it seems like a huge diversion of time and resources, given that we already had a working GUI. (Maybe that was the intention.) The arguments for it have boiled down to "yuck code older than me" from supposed professionals employed by commercial Linux vendors to sup…

Here's my PoV: - Having a single X server that almost everyone used lead to ossification. Having Wayland explicitly be only a protocol is helping to avoid that, though it comes with its own growing pains. - Wayland-the-Protocol (sounds like a Sonic the Hedgehog character when you say it like that) is not free of cruft, but it has been forward-thinking. It's compositor-centric, unlike X11 which predates desktop compos…

Thanks a lot for an actually constructive comment on Wayland! The information tends to be lost in all the hate.

I understand the frustration, but I see a lot of "it's completely useless" and "it's a regression", though to me it really sounds like Wayland is an improvement in terms of security. So there's that.

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#98
post #73

>The goal is, that xfwl4 will offer the same functionality and behavior as xfwm4 does... I wonder how strictly they interpret behavior here given the architectural divergence? As an example, focus-stealing prevention. In xfwm4 (and x11 generally), this requires complex heuristics and timestamp checks because x11 clients are powerful and can aggressively grab focus. In wayland, the compositor is the sole arbiter of fo…

At least they are honest regarding the reasons, not a wall of text to justify what bails down to "because I like it". Naturally these kinds of having a language island create some attrition regarding build tooling, integration with existing ecosystem and who is able to contribute to what. So lets see how it evolves, even with my C bashing, I was a much happier XFCE user than with GNOME and GJS all over the place.

You know that all the Wayland primitives, event handling and drawing in gnome-shell are handled in C/native code through Mutter, right ? The JavaScript in gnome-shell is the cherry on top for scripting, similar to C#/Lua (or any GCed language) in game engines, elisp in Emacs, event JS in QtQuick/QML.

It is not the performance bottleneck people seem to believe.

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#99

FYI, you can currently use most wlroots-based compositors with XFCE. I myself am running Hyprland + XFCE on Gentoo. https://github.com/bergutman/dots

I like the retro theme.

Could you expand on why you describe Hyprland and XFCE4 as "a cursed combination"? Might provide some insight as to why the official XFCE project decided to create their own compositor.

Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor

#100

>The goal is, that xfwl4 will offer the same functionality and behavior as xfwm4 does... I wonder how strictly they interpret behavior here given the architectural divergence? As an example, focus-stealing prevention. In xfwm4 (and x11 generally), this requires complex heuristics and timestamp checks because x11 clients are powerful and can aggressively grab focus. In wayland, the compositor is the sole arbiter of fo…

> Can the compositor replicate the input-to-pixel latency of uncomposited x11 on low-end devices or is that a class of performance we just have to sacrifice for the frame-perfect rendering of wayland?

I think this is ultimately correct. The compositor will have to render a frame at some point after the VBlank signal, and it will need to render with it the buffers on-screen as of that point, which will be from whatever was last rendered to them.

This can be somewhat alleviated, though. Both KDE and GNOME have been getting progressively more aggressive about "unredirecting" surfaces into hardware accelerated DRM planes in more circumstances. In this situation, the unredirected planes will not suffer compositing latency, as their buffers will be scanned out by the GPU at scanout time with the rest of the composited result. In modern Wayland, this is accomplished via both underlays and overlays.

There is also a slight penalty to the latency of mouse cursor movement that is imparted by using atomic DRM commits. Since using atomic DRM is very common in modern Wayland, it is normal for the cursor to have at least a fraction of a frame of added latency (depending on many factors.)

I'm of two minds about this. One, obviously it's sad. The old hardware worked perfectly and never had latency issues like this. Could it be possible to implement Wayland without full compositing? Maybe, actually. But I don't expect anyone to try, because let's face it, people have simply accepted that we now live with slightly more latency on the desktop. But then again, "old" hardware is now hardware that can more often than not, handle high refresh rates pretty well on desktop. An on-average increase of half a frame of latency is pretty bad with 60 Hz: it's, what, 8.3ms? But half a frame at 144 Hz is much less at somewhere around 3.5ms of added latency, which I think is more acceptable. Combined with aggressive underlay/overlay usage and dynamic triple buffering, I think this makes the compositing experience an acceptable tradeoff.

What about computers that really can't handle something like 144 Hz or higher output? Well, tough call. I mean, I have some fairly old computers that can definitely handle at least 100 Hz very well on desktop. I'm talking Pentium 4 machines with old GeForce cards. Linux is certainly happy to go older (though the baseline has been inching up there; I think you need at least Pentium now?) but I do think there is a point where you cross a line where asking for things to work well is just too much. At that point, it's not a matter of asking developers to not waste resources for no reason, but asking them to optimize not just for reasonably recent machines but also to optimize for machines from 30 years ago. At a certain point it does feel like we have to let it go, not because the computers are necessarily completely obsolete, but because the range of machines to support is too wide.

Obviously, though, simply going for higher refresh rates can't fix everything. Plenty of laptops have screens that can't go above 60 Hz, and they are forever stuck with a few extra milliseconds of latency when using a compositor. It is unideal, but what are you going to do? Compositors offer many advantages, it seems straightforward to design for a future where they are always on.

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