Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

mynorthwest.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 169 posts

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#91

Post by close04 »

bpt3 wrote: post #64
int_19h wrote: post #41

That is why software engineers also need unions. (but the time to organize was back when we still had the upper hand)

If there was a union in place, the massive over hiring that led to this wouldn't have happened and the competent developers would have made less money. So how exactly does everyone come out ahead there?

Despite the downvotes, this is at least partially correct. If unions were ubiquitous in the tech sector, companies would have been a lot more stingy with the hiring during ZIRP or boom eras. Or they would have been more creative with the hiring form - contractors, temporary staff, etc. None of these companies would risk locking in so many employees knowing that they'll be very expensive or impossible to fire.

I don't know about how a union would affect the standard salary being offered. I'd say that it could be higher for those essential enough to be "core staff", those that the company hires permanently knowing they'll be hard to get rid of and who drive the company forward because they're motivated with additional means.

So a union might drive the salaries and employment conditions up for the "core" team, while driving them down for the "temps". I've been through this as a unionized tech worker in both categories, and this is how it played out.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#92

Post by Spooky23 »

4er_transform wrote: post #72
int_19h wrote: post #41

That is why software engineers also need unions. (but the time to organize was back when we still had the upper hand)

[flagged]

Unionism is capitalism. If you are a W2 employee in the United States, you are in a contractual relationship in which you have very limited leverage to negotiate and limited protections.

Humans organize together in many different ways for many different reasons. Your own assertion belies that — if my negotiating my terms of working for someone is crime against humanity, why should the guy controlling the capital have that right?

The dude for whom I work is worth $10-15B. What should he make for the benefit of humanity and efficiency? He negotiated a deal with the board for his comp.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#93

Post by thedevilslawyer »

futuraperdita wrote: post #53
int_19h wrote: post #41

That is why software engineers also need unions. (but the time to organize was back when we still had the upper hand)

> but the time to organize was back when we still had the upper hand This is learned helplessness. It's not going to get better for software engineers anytime soon, I'm afraid. The time to organize is like planting a tree: the best time is 20 years ago, and the second best time is now. Especially if you're an early-career SWE, you seem to have little to lose anyhow.

There's no unions for H1B workers. If there's any union stepping up for their interest, it would find mass enrollment tomorrow. Unfortunately, there isn't support by non-h1b engineers, let alone unions.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#94

Post by roenxi »

selfawareMammal wrote: post #82
4er_transform wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You're entirely relying on a false dichotomy and an unsupported causal chain, assuming (without evidence!) that unions inherently reduce efficiency, slow growth, and lower living standards. The fact is that there's evidence that unions can correct power imbalances, raise wages, reduce inequality, and even support long-term productivity and social stability

> The fact is that there's evidence that unions can correct power imbalances, raise wages, reduce inequality, and even support long-term productivity and social stability

I suppose there was a time when American manufacturing had a big power/equality/productivity and social stability imbalance over Chinese manufacturing and the US unions did play a role in correcting that and promoting Chinese wealth and power. So in principle I agree. I'm just less sure that AWS employees are going to benefit from doing the same thing in software.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#95

Post by WalterBright »

cmiles74 wrote: post #14
mikert89 wrote: post #4

Right now, amazon is packed full of L6 and L7 software managers, making 450-900k a year, that: 1. dont understand ai 2. have had the same skill set for 10 years 3. are working on autopilot, not trying to get promoted, just collecting paychecks 4. taking zero risk, follow protocol, play politics for the company to move forwards, they need a massive purge. 15k is childs play. too many employees that make too much money…

Isn’t that the job? I’m not even sure what “understand AI” even means, from where I sit, it maybe means “add AI to everything” and that doesn’t seem that complicated. I’m not here to defend the people in Amazon corporate, I’m just not convinced it’s okay for a big rich corporation to hire all these people and then fire them on a whim. It’s not like Amazon can’t afford it.

> I’m just not convinced it’s okay for a big rich corporation to hire all these people and then fire them on a whim

Amazon doesn't owe anybody a job. Likewise, if you buy groceries from Safeway, you can switch to buying from Walmart anytime.

> It’s not like Amazon can’t afford it.

I'm sure there are a lot of things people don't buy even though they can afford it.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#96

Post by thedevilslawyer »

gosub100 wrote: post #89
xienze wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are only going to be effective in a domain where the job can’t be done just as well by someone on the other side of the planet. Think plumbers, electricians, etc. The fact that the work has to be done “here and now” is the leverage those workers have. A software engineer’s union would just kick whatever offshoring is happening into overdrive.

Unions might be able to bargain against h1b because they can have an honest conversation with management about the "we just can't FIND anybody" lie.

When there's no solidarity amongst ALL workers, no wonder unions are a non starter.

In such an environment, H1B workers will actively fight union formation.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#97

Post by [deleted] »

vachina wrote: post #77
bigfatkitten wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company I just left is firing as many people in the US as possible and rehiring primarily in India, with Dublin and Toronto by exception. FedRAMP requires US persons on US soil, and so as far as Americans are concerned, only senior management and people working on the federal business are safe.

Shocking. Expect software quality to take a nosedive.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#98

Post by elcritch »

brainwad wrote: post #79
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States has a labor pool of over 170 million people. If you can't find Amazon workers in a country of that size, it's due to one thing and one thing only: you're a bigot who hates Americans. We can dance around it and dress it up like we have for the past thirty years but it's time to call it for what it is: bigotry and hatred wearing a dress of openness. Just admit what you are instead of continuing this a…

When you buy services, is your bar good enough, or do you look for best value for money? And are those who try to optimise bigots merely for not buying from their local provider? But anyway, the decrease in hiring in the US will be mostly driven by foreigners that will still be hired, but now not relocate to the US. Why hire someone on a H1-B at an extra cost of 100k when you can hire the same person in some other of…

That’s just another way of admitting that H1-B was always about lowering costs rather than lack of talent.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#99

Post by klodolph »

loeg wrote: post #69
malfist wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10% over a year on top of Amazon's 10% rank and yank. Thats a huge cut.

What makes you think this is on top of some other layoff process?

I’ll say that the parent comment is correct and explain why I think it’s correct.

Amazon has demonstrated a preference for “unregretted attrition” (URA). URA is the name for what happens when engineers exit the company and Amazon is happy that they do. The exit can either be due to a PIP failure (performance improvement plan) or just unhappiness with the company. If you believe URA works well, then URA is how Amazon gets rid of low-performing employees. If you are like me, then you believe that URA is mostly explained by the following factors:

- Failure of Amazon to successfully develop engineers. A good company will turn engineers into better engineers, and Amazon gets rid of them instead, which is inefficient. The attrition is only unregretted because Amazon was not competent enough to develop these engineers into better engineers.

- Consequences of poor culture, causing good engineers to mentally check out and eventually leave. The attrition is only unregretted because the good engineers will care less and therefore look like bad performers, when they’re good performers in a bad environment.

- A way for Amazon to avoid paying out stock grants at the 2-year mark (which is when you get most of your stock grants at Amazon). The attrition is only unregretted because somebody at Amazon cares more about the short-term bottom line.

- A way for managers to exercise control over employees they don’t like. The attrition is only unregretted because Amazon’s decisions about employee performance are based on bad data provided by managers.

I won’t share stories here but the targets are around 5% per year, maybe a little higher.

Re: Amazon braces for another major round of layoffs, 14,000 jobs at risk

#100

Post by WalterBright »

cmiles74 wrote: post #47
mikert89 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no you dont understand, the whole career ladder at amazon is clogged with people at the company 10+ years, that have been in their role 5+ years. its a big game of dont get fired, and collect pay checks as long as possible

These are the people Amazon hired, with the qualifications for which Amazon was hiring. If Amazon has some nebulous “career ladder” problem, I believe the fault can be laid at the feet of Amazon’s hiring practices. Deciding one day to simply fire them all, I guess for doing what they were hired to do, is not okay.

> Deciding one day to simply fire them all, I guess for doing what they were hired to do, is not okay.

Business conditions change constantly.

Post reply on HN