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EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

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Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#91

Post by dataviz1000 »

mikaeluman wrote: post #51

The main issue as I see it is that we need food security in the EU. Especially high quality nutrious dense food like beef. And EU farmers are subject to a ridiculous number of regulations and costs. The thing is, these may very well be good for environmental reasons, but it doesn't work if we just start importing from countries that do the opposite.

I'm currently in Brazil. Buenos Aries has NYC, Miami food prices. One of the things that strikes me the most is price of food here and Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay. By shipping the food to Europe and United States, it makes it extremely expensive here. After decades of authoritarian control, the food production here has been concentrated into a few extraordinary families.

The EU farmers are not the only people getting the short stick.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#92

Post by eigenspace »

dlisboa wrote: post #84
3ple_alpha wrote: post #45

Removing tariffs on beef specifically is a serious mistake, there's no need to incentivise any more production of that. Other agricultural imports, like soy and coffee beans, are a huge boon to the EU on the other hand. If this results in cheaper coffee, everyone in my country, for one, will be ecstatic.

Soybeans have probably a worse impact on the environment than beef. Most of the deforestation in SA in the past couple of decades was for soybean farms.

Well, that's a very misleading statement. Most of those soybeans aren't being produced to be eaten by humans. Most soybeans are used for animal feed.

It's the meat industry that is primarily driving deforestation, both directly for pasture, and indirectly for animal feed.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#93

Post by iagooar »

N19PEDL2 wrote: post #47
iagooar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.

Who could possibly impose a naval blockade on the EU? Not even the US Navy would be able to do so.

You only need to control 2-3 chokepoints to hugely impact shipment - especially of perishables. The Panama Canal + Caribean + Gibraltar and you get no food in Europe.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#94

Post by pseudony »

iagooar wrote: post #41
oytis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most importantly, Europe needs more trading partners after having lost Russia and now losing the United States. Second, I am happy about German (I suspect it's similar in other EU countries) farmers largely supporting the far-right getting a taste of a world without protectionism and regulations. Finally, I hope for lower grocery prices, not only for myself, but also because it makes the whole social situation less e…

Fair trade yes. Unfair trade no. And Mercosur is COMPLETELY unfair to European farmers. It imposes higher standards - and thus costs - on European farmers, while allowing South American farmers to produce with lower quality and adding forbidden substances to grow crops faster - and cheaper.

From Reuters: “ The extra imports represent 1.6% of EU beef consumption and 1.4% for poultry”.

Maybe take a deep breath and relax a bit before storming the ramparts. This is a slight adjustment not something undercutting all EU farming.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#95

Post by nottorp »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #19

There is some valid criticism raised by farmers in my country (Romania) related to use of pesticides and other substances that are forbidden in EU, but permitted in Mercosur and products can be imported even with the forbidden substances in it. That sounds pretty bad, consumer protection is the only part that I still like about modern EU.

Is it valid? Are those actually farmers?

The criticism seems to come from the political side most likely to steal your wallet while talking to you, and from the nazi wannabes.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#96

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

toyg wrote: post #38
iagooar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.

Most of Europe has long reached a population density that makes it effectively impossible to achieve self-sufficiency, so this argument is pointless. This is going to be a good agreement if it is policed well enough that Mercosur countries are effectively forced to raise their food-production standards (because accepting imports doesn't automatically mean they can ignore regulations on suitability). Europe gets cheap…

>Most of Europe has long reached a population density that makes it effectively impossible to achieve self-sufficiency, so this argument is pointless.

Current population density isn't an issue at all, but energy is.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#97

Post by toyg »

mantas wrote: post #64
toyg wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Europe has long reached a population density that makes it effectively impossible to achieve self-sufficiency, so this argument is pointless. This is going to be a good agreement if it is policed well enough that Mercosur countries are effectively forced to raise their food-production standards (because accepting imports doesn't automatically mean they can ignore regulations on suitability). Europe gets cheap…

Shipping food across the globe works great along with green deal. Such food quality is also questionable in many ways because transportability must be #1 priority. As another commenter pointed out, beef is especially interesting. On one hand EU cries about greenhouse gas and how we should eat less meat. On the other hand goes to reduce price and increase production of beef which such moves. Pure hypocrisy. I wonder i…

If anything, deepening economic relationships will strengthen European influence over complex issues.

As for transport - enough of this stuff is already transported across the ocean (from LATAM but also South Africa, for example) that I doubt there will be much of a change.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#98

Post by lm28469 »

bboozzoo wrote: post #90
lm28469 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we focus on the shit part of the deal? Do I need to explain that really?

The shit part is what easily stris emotions and can be played by various actors and their agendas.

Yes of course, and the energy or minerals lobbies don't have any kind of agendas of course. They're obviously working for your well being and not serving their interests

Also, one of the most corrupt country in the world will obviously play by the rules

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#99

Post by exceptione »

vemv wrote: post #82

At which point the "rest of the world" (everyone but the US) can just threaten Trump with making the US economically irrelevant? That would seem a simple and peaceful solution to the Trump-inflicted bullying - stop messing around or we'll cease all commerce with you. As I see it, just the bluff would suffice. Make the threat credible and the higher powers would remove Trump in a day or two.

  > Make the threat credible and the higher powers would remove Trump in a day or two.
Maybe, maybe not. Trump is here to distract the public via the media business, while behind the scenes ideologues implement Project 2025. The factions behind the GOP aren't aligned on all parts, so an erratic path is to be expected.

What unites them is that their agenda isn't aligned with the electorate. People still try to make sense of things, like this is just another administration, maybe a weird one, but fundamentally part of the same society as you and me. We can't recognize the real nature of that beast, because we are short of imagination. And... we don't want to believe in conspiracy theories, right?

The top isn't compatible with democracy, people like Thiel are not shy about it. We just don't want to believe that.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#100

Post by NoboruWataya »

I am from a country (Ireland) that has a huge agricultural sector so I sympathise with the argument that this will be bad for European farmers. That said, food production in the EU is already largely kept alive by subsidies so if this deal makes life more difficult for farmers I can see the result being higher subsidies to compensate rather than the large scale closure of European farms. Which obviously isn't great but possibly a fair price to pay for the deal as a whole (I don't know enough about it honestly).

But I think the deal is quite positive from a geopolitical perspective. For one, any deal we make without the US just makes us more resilient in the event of a trade war that looks increasingly inevitable. Obviously Mercosur can't replace the US but it's a step in the right direction. And strengthening ties between the EU and Latin America makes it more difficult for Russia and China to bring that continent into their sphere of influence.

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