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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#91
post #30

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

I've seen many kinds of H1B employment. People with excellent skills and experience being paid competitive wages, people with reasonable skills being exploited at low wages at the clear expense of locals, and people who were hardly qualified to warm a seat being pulled in to pad up some contract as cheaply as possible. As usually when you paint with broad strokes you cover some dissimilar surfaces. But at the core th…

> Are the employees entitled to the 'artificial' supply limitation created by national boundaries?

It's not caused by boundaries, but by immigration policies. Open up immigration and it won't matter that there are boundaries.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#92
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B VISA has a limit of 6 years. H1-Bs get no social security benefits even though they pay social security taxes just like anyone else. Their children do not educate for free - they pay local, federal and city taxes just like anyone else. They aren't allowed to vote. You are thinking immigrants not H1-Bs. Due to severe shortage of immigrant VISAs and due to MNCs not filing Green Cards for most H1-Bs - there is a sm…

I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B. But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's educatio…

>Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes

I see this ridiculous assertion everywhere now a days. If h1b's are renting an apartment, they are still paying property taxes because the building owner has to pay these taxes. Do you think that property owners really pay these taxes out of the goodness of their heart?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#93
post #56
post #51

I'm currently involved with immigrating to Canada as a skilled worker, and I've previously worked in the US on multiple J1 visas, and applied for a H1B. My take on all of this is that bringing in foreigners in this way destroys the whole supply and demand setup of jobs and employees. As an example, let's say company A wants to hire a salaried employee for $x. After 6 months of not finding anyone, they should offer mo…

The problem is that reality is messy . There are a lot of factors that gunk up a good theory. Higher demand can lead to higher wages if we restrict immigration, but if American students raw out of highschool are not thinking 5 to 10 years into their future when they pick a major, supply is not going to jump like the growing industry needs it to. The issue is compounded when popular media artificially lowers the level…

> If supply is dwindling then raising wages can work for individual companies, but not I think for the industry as a whole.

It's interesting you look at this from the perspective of benefiting the companies. My discussion was about the lack of benefit to the employees and people in the country in general.

> supply is not going to jump like the growing industry needs it to.

Industry only needs supply to jump fast so that profits can jump fast. Let's face it, if Apple can't get enough Software Engineers fast enough, iOS 7 might be delayed and profits might be reduced, but they're not going to fail because they can't get enough good employees fast enough.

The approach of bringing in foreigners absolutely supports faster growth for the companies, and higher profits for the companies, but it's not doing anything to help employees or the people in that country on the whole.

Is it really worth lowering the overall wages and standard of living of people in your own country so that the companies can make higher profits faster?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#94
post #70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protectionism in terms of differential pricing of goods in many cases to protect local industries and jobs is considered against free trade -- People have associated liabilities, (human rights, etc) unlike goods (unecumbered economic assets). That is why there is not free-trade in people. Goods do not come with the need for educating, healthcare, housing etc. The thrust of your argument is correct, in that yes this i…

Thanks. I appreciate the difference and understand the need for taking other things into consideration for allowing immigration. But most of the arguments made in this thread and other similar debates - the main point is about the economics associated with it. By not allowing companies to pay lower wages to foreign workers the wages of the local market is being protected. In the short term bringing down the wages wou…

Again, these are good points. As i like to say, there are two kinds of political economy.

1) that supports the Economy (in general);and

2) that has been Politicised to supports a particular group of people

Nations are always looking out for themselves, but then so too are politicians (and their $supporters). =D

It is usefull, though, to seperate them. In that sense, the default logic of economics in a politicised argument should not (IMHO) be deferred to [just because]. It should be viewed as critically as a political policy (ie Art, not 'Science'...its not objective etc). And also debated thus and put into perspective also.

That's why many debates on immigration, etc get so far off track and/or are difficult to conclude with much progress. Folks conflating the two ideas and the standards of judgement, performance, opportunity cost, etc.

__________

On the substance of your point:

By not allowing companies to pay lower wages to foreign workers the wages of the local market is being protected.

The answer is yes, it is being protected. But this is a normal thing. Also what is being protected is the political Atom of . This is not something that should, in general, be commoditized. Thus, the "permeability" of the body politic (at the level of citizenry) is a legitimate debate, but its a political one, not a one-dimensional one in terms of wages/pricing etc.

So, to advance the debate, the question needs to be reframed a bit: what is the optimum level of social-permeability desired to grant title: citizen (or: greencarde, etc) for a nation state? And the you have to address issues of other kinds.

For example, do you care more about well to do foreigners than your less well-off existing compatriots? This is sort of an empathy argument (vs. efficiency). And in part its a longer term argument (are citizens more efficient working with some safety net underneath them?)/etc.

Right now in the usa, "merit" is not really a big goal of immigration policy. Can't say I agree with this, but the policy was revised to be more about human-right/family etc. So, if you are an immigrant general labororer US citizen it might be you get your cousin a greencard. But a regular no-strings PhD in astrophysics or whateve is not at any advantage vs the cousin of the general labourer (in fact just the opposite).

But family and the like is the ultimate sort of political argument. On the one hand, its very emotional (for those involved). And on the other hand, their are very specific special interests at play (important, process wise). So, you can see this is not something just totally possible to ignore, intellectually or practically.

Each country is different, though, in these ideas. Places like Australia have been know to offer more open merit-based immigration. Canada too, I believe.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#95
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B VISA has a limit of 6 years. H1-Bs get no social security benefits even though they pay social security taxes just like anyone else. Their children do not educate for free - they pay local, federal and city taxes just like anyone else. They aren't allowed to vote. You are thinking immigrants not H1-Bs. Due to severe shortage of immigrant VISAs and due to MNCs not filing Green Cards for most H1-Bs - there is a sm…

I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B. But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's educatio…

> H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status.

I am not sure what you are saying here. H1-Bs and their employers pay for medical insurance (this is at market rate - not subsidized by the taxpayer or anything like that) - I and dozens other I know did. That covers their medical emergencies. H1-Bs pay premiums for children and spouse too btw. If they lose their job - they have one week (that too is grey area) to leave the country. Why do you think H1-B emergency treatments are a) significant and routine and b) at a cost to citizens/permanent residents?

I can tell you one thing though - your assumptions about H1Bs being a burden on society is far from truth. If your theory is that they don't stay long enough to be able to buy a house and pay property taxes - that's hardly their fault. Plus not every citizen born here buys a house - many rent.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#96
post #30

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

I've seen many kinds of H1B employment. People with excellent skills and experience being paid competitive wages, people with reasonable skills being exploited at low wages at the clear expense of locals, and people who were hardly qualified to warm a seat being pulled in to pad up some contract as cheaply as possible. As usually when you paint with broad strokes you cover some dissimilar surfaces. But at the core th…

Please take into account that not only does the supply of labour increase, but those people earn money that they will either spend or invest. Thus increasing the demand for labour as well.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#97
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the freedom aspect is critical in any policy change. The 'freedom', or lack thereof, is tied to what the sponsoring employer controls - the green card process. I would propose something along the lines of: 1) If a person receives an H1-B he/she is free to work for anyone they want [Open Work Permit]. This kicks in immediately - no waiting period. On a job change the H1-B holder sends a job change notice to US…

1.) Your H-1B isn't tied to your employer except during the application/renewal process. The rest of the time you're free to move around. However, every prospective employer will want to know about your visa status, and that new employer will have to work on your H-1B renewal. You're at the same negotiating disadvantage, because you only really compete with other H-1B holders. 2.) There already exist smooth processes…

>... except during the application/renewal process.... new employer will have to work on your H-1B renewal.

>... Unfortunately, that's usually tied to your employer... restart the clock on you.

[I am picking some of the still occurring pain points in your statements]

It is for these reasons (and a few others) that I am advocating BOTH steps. I want to get control out of the employer and into the employees hand and also reduce the burden on the new employer.

1) Use an 'open work permit' - your permit is not tied to any employer. The permit has a date range (5 yr) during which it is valid for any employer without any additional burden on the new employer.

2) Remove the concept of a 're-startable clock' and multiple labor certs - those create burdens to job mobility. Lets whittle it down to experience gained while in H-1B status regardless of employer. Or some other metric that cannot be reset on employer change.

With apologies for repetition from my earlier post.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#98
post #51

I'm currently involved with immigrating to Canada as a skilled worker, and I've previously worked in the US on multiple J1 visas, and applied for a H1B. My take on all of this is that bringing in foreigners in this way destroys the whole supply and demand setup of jobs and employees. As an example, let's say company A wants to hire a salaried employee for $x. After 6 months of not finding anyone, they should offer mo…

Please take into account that demand doesn't stay fixed, either. The immigrant will either spend or invest his pay.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#100

This sort of thing is also harmful for native IT development for an outsourcing destination such as India. Since the motive of work channeled to India is simply cheaper costs, good software engineers have a limited run. One of the direct fallout is time-based promotions instead of merit-based. Some salient points: a) Average entry salary(0 years exp.) for an IT worker is about $6k. After applying PPP(purchasing power…

If the carrot makes more people invest in skills than actually leave the country, India will easily profit. Also the ones who leave often send remittance, and may one day come back with new skills.

> This is also the reason India has not produced even a single Google or a Nokia.

There are other things wrong with India (and Nokia nowadays, too).

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