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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#91

Post by cdev_gl »

I can't speak to the rest of the text or the laptops themselves, but as someone who works with color reproducibility in video and print, those photos comparing colors of two different screens are worse than useless.

Uncalibrated screens photographed at different angles in different lighting conditions are not a valid basis for comparison. If you want properly calibrated displays, you need to purchase hardware (datacolor makes one such device) and calibrate them.

Even "factory-calibrated" monitors will benefit from this, because the quality of that calibration varies widely and your color reproduction is going to vary based on ambient lighting conditions etc.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#92

Post by systemtest »

ziml77 wrote: post #76

I probably should have returned mine. I still love the idea of the device, but the speakers, display, and trackpad are subpar. I get that I'm spoiled by the quality of a MacBook Pro in those areas, but they still feel worse than other laptops I've tried. Also he says he's never heard the fans spin up but I've had the system spin the fans up very high and they get loud. And the spin-up was definitely valid the times w…

Would be cool if Framework would sell speakers, a display, trackpad and housing comparable in quality to a MacBook Pro. It would have a high pricetag but you could slowly upgrade your machine. Especially since swapping out speakers or a trackpad is so easy.

Right now the Laptop 13 speaker kit is €20 but they could offer a €150 option that performs similar to a MacBook Pro for people who value sound.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#93

Post by contingencies »

kec wrote: post #68
casenmgreen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM. Get away from Intel and management engine.

Or you could just buy a MacBook Air for like $900 (or one of the windows snapdragon machines, but it you care about avoiding Intel I’m assuming you want Linux and doubt the support is as good as asahi on Macs)

Macbook air = small keyboard, small screen, limited battery, all parts expensive to service, etc. Try hacking a Mac Mini instead: https://github.com/vk2diy/hackbook-m4-mini

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#94

Post by justin66 »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.

Buying one of the original Frameworks and a Macbook Air at roughly the same time made me realize how little I actually care about upgradeability and repairability. This feeling took me by surprise. Modern Macbooks are just so much better in terms of feel it's like comparing tech from a different decade.

(it also turns out that having a defect that the manufacturer doesn't make right can cause a person to feel a few different things, but gratitude for the product's repairability isn't at the top of the list)

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#95

Post by rewgs »

Putting aside anything specific to Framework, this article really puts into perspective just how piss poor the laptop market is right now.

Macs have fantastic hardware, but of course only really run macOS. The future of Asahi Linux is very questionable and, like the author, is not something I'm interested in relying on. I don't hate macOS by any means but I much prefer running Arch with Hyprland.

PC laptop hardware is just shit in comparison. Like the author, my X1 Carbon (Gen 11) has keys that intermittently fail, and the cooling is pretty bad (I actually love the OLED display, though, and don't really understand the author's concerns here).

I haven't found any non-Mac laptops that beat the X1 Carbon line, though (relatively low bar that it is). Frameworks are cool if you are fine with the tradeoffs, but personally I'm just not -- I much prefer to tinker with desktops/servers, and am totally fine with laptops being a physically-closed "appliance," as long as that results in great battery life, cooling, and adequate performance (I can always offload heavy tasks to my desktop if need be).

Which is all to say: what I want is Mac equivalent hardware that can reliably run Linux.

For now, I've landed on using my extremely beefy Arch desktop when at home, and my M1 MacBook Air (which is still running great 5 years on) when mobile. Even accepting that I'll be using an Apple device when mobile, though, there's still room for improvement in this setup: I'd love LTE support (no, a hot spot isn't a good replacement), a nano-texture display (which appears to be locked to the MacBook Pro line), and either an even smaller footprint (like the old 12-inch MacBook) or a little bit of active cooling to offset the performance regressions in macOS. An iPad might make sense, but I own one and frankly hate it due to OS limitations, such as only a single stream of audio at a time (which causes lots of bugs -- watching a YouTube video while scrolling Reddit will cause the YouTube video to pause whenever you scroll past a video on Reddit, even if it's muted), a lack of terminal, etc. I want a "real" OS, so tablets are out of the question entirely.

I don't understand why absolutely zero PC manufacturers have even tried to take on Apple's laptop offerings. Sure, Apple Silicon is great, but Intel and AMD have done an admirable job at increasing battery efficiency since its release; it's not the only component that makes Mac laptops so great. I'm sure these manufacturers know what they're doing in this regard and have decided it doesn't make business sense to take on Apple. But man, I just wish someone would at least try.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#96

Post by turtletontine »

Framework 16 owner here, had mine for a year and a half. While most of this post is also true in my experience, I just don’t care. These are largely small cosmetic nitpicks that you need to look for to notice. The only complaints here that I really share are the jankiness of the spacers (a little jarring at first, but now I’m used to it), and the speakers really are noticeably worse than any of my other devices. So? I don’t watch movies on it, or listen to music, that’s what I have a TV and headphones for.

Seems inarguable that you can get a much more “premium” laptop for about the same cost. But I didn’t buy a framework for a “premium” feel… I was hoping to buy the last laptop I’ll ever need. And so far I’m happy with the result!

PS: the battery life is by far the best of any laptop I’ve owned. Maybe that just shows that my previous ones were junk, but I’m quite happy with it

PPS: I should note my employer was willing to buy it for me, so price was much less of a concern. Not everyone is so lucky ofc

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#97

Post by thiht »

vanviegen wrote: post #82
oldestofsports wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2000 euros was a premium price 10 years ago, today it is closer to mid range

Uhh... What?

Not sure why you’re being downvoted, that’s a ridiculous statement. 2000€ for a laptop is definitely premium pricing, not mid range.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#98

Post by culopatin »

Octoth0rpe wrote: post #65
piskov wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> replacing a stick of ram How often does your RAM fail you?

The use case is to replace an existing working stick with a higher capacity stick, not just for repairs.

On my experience, every time I’ve been in the situation of looking for more capacity because the software requirements have gone up, I’m 1-2 generations of DDR behind and it doesn’t really make sense to do the upgrade anyway.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#99

Post by ta9000 »

Or just buy a MBP and use MacOS and not worry about any of these problems. I use Linux for everything but my laptop, but I’m not about to deal with a subpar experience when decent laptops are already so expensive.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#100

Post by KerrAvon »

Frotag wrote: post #52
DetectDefect wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the consumers participating in it.

I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.

Apple continues to be the elephant in the repairability room. You want something that likely won’t need repair ever for its useful lifetime, a current MacBook is worth looking at. Upgradeability, nope.
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