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Stop Slopware

stopslopware.net

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Re: Stop Slopware

#91

Post by codyklimdev »

wibbily wrote: post #55

It bothers me that so many programmers I know, here and in real life, seem to never actually have cared about the craft of software development? Just about solving problems. I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all. It feels…

I like programming as a craft, but the kinds of coding I do for fun and the kinds of coding I do for profit look very, very different. So, for my work programming I use AI a lot more than I do in my own time.

After all, my work (for the moment) is just about pushing features to keep the PMs happy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Stop Slopware

#92

Post by avian »

pegasus wrote: post #82
jayd16 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can go to a restaurant to see new dishes (which isn't nothing) but it wont exactly teach you how to cook.

Unless you happen to meet the unendingly patient and helpful cook who is willing to explain the recipe in any depth one desires.

You mean the cook who will in the same unendingly patient and helpful manner sometimes confidently suggest putting glue into your dishes and serving your guests rocks for lunch?

Re: Stop Slopware

#93

Post by [deleted] »

wibbily wrote: post #55

It bothers me that so many programmers I know, here and in real life, seem to never actually have cared about the craft of software development? Just about solving problems. I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all. It feels…

[deleted]

Re: Stop Slopware

#94

Post by [deleted] »

wibbily wrote: post #55

It bothers me that so many programmers I know, here and in real life, seem to never actually have cared about the craft of software development? Just about solving problems. I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all. It feels…

[deleted]

Re: Stop Slopware

#95

Post by koolba »

da_grift_shift wrote: post #79
quectophoton wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abbreviated as "VC Cleanup Specialist". With the ambiguity in the meaning of "VC" being intentional.

Launch HN: Vibely - VC Cleaners For Your VC Slop (YC S25)

I can see this being a HomeJoy style situation (coincidentally actually backed by YC…), where they claim to clean up all your sloppy code for $40, burn through some more VC (extra funny as it’d be spending one VC’s money to try to clean up another VC’s mistakes), give up on AI and evolve into the usual outsourced body shop, and finally fold when everybody involved realizes the business model is not solvent.

Re: Stop Slopware

#96

Post by bitbuilder »

tikhonj wrote: post #78
tonymet wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s room for both types of people in any trade. Some photographers obsess over the equipment, some only care about the photos. Carpenters with tools. Musicians with instruments & gear. Every craft has people who care about the how and those who focus on the product. I’ve always enjoyed the craft of software engineering, though even I admit the culture around it can be a bit overly contemplative . Nevertheless, th…

Caring about craft in programming is more like a photographer caring about light and composition and creativity and taste than a photographer caring about equipment.

I'm not sure that's a valid analogy. Light, composition and creativity are all experienced directly by viewer, and essentially describe what it is that we notice and appreciate in photography (even if subconciously). The best analogy I can think of to programming is the UX/UI of the application. Given equaly competent developers, nobody is going to notice or care if your application was written in Rust or Cold Fusion.

But the original analogy is flawed too. I wouldn't consider caring about the craft of programming to be similar to obsessing over your photography equipment. GAS is about consumerism and playing with gadgets, at the end of the day.

Caring about the craft of programming is more about being an artist who takes pride in crafting something beautiful, even if they're the only ones experiencing it. I am most definitley not one of those programmers, but have always had nothing but immense respect for those that are.

Re: Stop Slopware

#97

Post by square_usual »

wibbily wrote: post #55

It bothers me that so many programmers I know, here and in real life, seem to never actually have cared about the craft of software development? Just about solving problems. I like problem solving too. But I also like theory and craft, and in my naïveté I assumed most of us were like me. LLMs divorced craft-programming from tool-programming and now it seems like there were never any craft-programmers at all. It feels…

Every now and then someone posts the "X programmers (implied good) hate AI, Y programmers (implied bad) hate AI!" and every time people come out of the woodwork to point out that, no, X programmers can also use AI to take out things they can delegate and focus on stuff that's cool. Case in point, Steve Klabnik, a programmer who nobody can say doesn't care about the craft, is working on a new language primarily with AI: https://rue-lang.dev/

Re: Stop Slopware

#98

Post by square_usual »

avian wrote: post #92
pegasus wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you happen to meet the unendingly patient and helpful cook who is willing to explain the recipe in any depth one desires.

You mean the cook who will in the same unendingly patient and helpful manner sometimes confidently suggest putting glue into your dishes and serving your guests rocks for lunch?

I'm sure these year-old examples of errors from a bad product are still valid!

Re: Stop Slopware

#99

Post by stevesearer »

The tools I AI slop/vibe code are more like when I'd use spreadsheets for everything rather than real software.

I'm not against taking the time to read the docs, learn to craft code, and ship beautiful projects, but I could have done that before and didn't then either.

The difference is that now I have a hundred small, internal tools that save my team time and energy.

Re: Stop Slopware

#100

Post by wibbily »

xeromal wrote: post #84
MisterTea wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like one person with terrible taste.

My point lol. I think most devs, especially ones that call it a "craft, take themselves too seriously. We're glorified construction workers that get paid a lot

> We're glorified construction workers that get paid a lot

That attitude is my point. I'm a developer by trade; I have a different set of feelings and concerns about "the industry" and how new tooling will affect it. (I even use it sometimes at work.) But I'm also a computer scientist and I thought more of you all were too.

To beat my original analogy to death: I thought this was a painting forum, but it's more of a "making pictures" forum, and now that it's easier to make a picture, no one cares about paintbrushes.

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