Be nice to programmers • Hacker News Board

Re: Be nice to programmers

#91

Post by greenyoda » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 6:46 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #66

greenyoda wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me of an old story about how different people can look at the same job in different ways: A man came across three masons who were working at chipping chunks of granite from large blocks. The first seemed unhappy at his job, chipping away and frequently looking at his watch. When the man asked what it was that he was doing, the first mason responded, rather curtly, "I’m hammering this stupid rock, and I c…

I rather like this and would love to appropriate it. Is there a correct attribution to use?

It's an old story that probably pre-dates programming and I've seen it several times in different places. I have no idea what the actual origin is. I just searched the web for "I'm building a cathedral" and used the wording I found here:

http://bestpracticesforbusiness.com/2010/05/07/purpose-in-mo...

Re: Be nice to programmers

#92

Post by wam » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 6:56 PM UTC

Sakes wrote: post #34

This guy has not discovered what it means to be a programmer, he is simply in a phase of his programming life. Chasing down bugs all the time? Why? I don't do this, and when I run across a bug it is usually a quick fix and not a big deal. The goal is not to write it perfectly without bugs. The goal is to release it perfectly without bugs, and to do this all you have to do is test your code often as you make changes t…

Well, sure, but everything in life is a "phase." A whole career might be a phase. But that's not the point. This post clarifies a vague problem. It's great that you've avoided that. Good for you! Seriously. But to say that he hasn't "discovered what it means to be a programmer" isn't helpful:

Someone doesn't feel amazing about being a programmer. Programming is amazing. Therefore that person is not (yet) a programmer.

And the "(yet)" is unimportant here, because a negative feedback loop is exactly what gets in the way of experiencing the amazing part.

The point isn't really to define what a programmer is, it's to define a problem that many people who work as programmers experience, and how that contrasts with other people's expectations.

Re: Be nice to programmers

#93

Post by efuquen » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:00 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #58

AerieC wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is true of any "producing" profession. Any time you're creating something and "putting it out there", there's going to be a huge stream of criticism from every direction. Artists, writers, musicians, engineers, carpenters, etc.--all of their work is constantly under scrutiny by "the customer" and/or "the boss". Even non-producing professions have to deal with constant scrutiny of their performance and negati…

Salespeople make the sale sometimes. A doctor sees someone walk back in for their checkup who couldn't walk a week ago. A technical support person often says goodbye to a cheerful happy customer. Musicians may have to deal with criticism in the papers, but if they delist their phone number it's because of the fans , generally, not the critics. Actually that goes for almost all the creative industries. Developers have…

You think this: "Developers have very little positive to go off of, and few professions have customers as discerning and grumpy as compilers."

Yet you mentioned this example: "A doctor sees someone walk back in for their checkup who couldn't walk a week ago."

Is not seeing a product in action, one that possibly effects millions of lives (to be more realistic lets say 1000s, hell even a few dozen should be satisfying) in a positive way not very satisfying? I doctor helping a patient might not be as personal, but when I think about software I right the people who are using it and enjoying it are not far from my mind.

Re: Be nice to programmers

#94

Post by think-large » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:00 PM UTC

greenyoda wrote: post #41

peeters wrote: post #30

There is nothing intrinsically negative about anything said here, just neutral things viewed in an extremely negative lens. Here's the exact same set of steps making up the "normal workflow", but framed as a positive feedback loop: 1. write some code 2. run the code 3. get further than you did before (perhaps with a new error message) 4. decide what's next and go back to step 1 I don't think negativity is intrinsic t…

That reminds me of an old story about how different people can look at the same job in different ways: A man came across three masons who were working at chipping chunks of granite from large blocks. The first seemed unhappy at his job, chipping away and frequently looking at his watch. When the man asked what it was that he was doing, the first mason responded, rather curtly, "I’m hammering this stupid rock, and I c…

Best comment I've read in a long time. Thank you very much Yoda.

Re: Be nice to programmers

#95

Post by wam » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:07 PM UTC

greenyoda wrote: post #41

peeters wrote: post #30

There is nothing intrinsically negative about anything said here, just neutral things viewed in an extremely negative lens. Here's the exact same set of steps making up the "normal workflow", but framed as a positive feedback loop: 1. write some code 2. run the code 3. get further than you did before (perhaps with a new error message) 4. decide what's next and go back to step 1 I don't think negativity is intrinsic t…

That reminds me of an old story about how different people can look at the same job in different ways: A man came across three masons who were working at chipping chunks of granite from large blocks. The first seemed unhappy at his job, chipping away and frequently looking at his watch. When the man asked what it was that he was doing, the first mason responded, rather curtly, "I’m hammering this stupid rock, and I c…

But this isn't what the piece describes. The author is talking about the _feedback_ one receives while doing work. Take the 3rd mason and start giving him a list of what's wrong with the work he's doing every day until the cathedral is built, and see what happens. This stonemason example, while touching and certainly applicable to some situations, is just too far removed from the reality of what many programmers experience to be relevant here.

Re: Be nice to programmers

#96

Post by abc_lisper » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:10 PM UTC

Sakes wrote: post #34

This guy has not discovered what it means to be a programmer, he is simply in a phase of his programming life. Chasing down bugs all the time? Why? I don't do this, and when I run across a bug it is usually a quick fix and not a big deal. The goal is not to write it perfectly without bugs. The goal is to release it perfectly without bugs, and to do this all you have to do is test your code often as you make changes t…

> This guy has not discovered what it means to be a programmer, he is simply in a phase of his programming life.

Very well put. I see so many posts here that I roll my eyes over. This is not to put them down, may be it has to do with the fact that we as programmers don't talk about our "feelings" :)

Re: Be nice to programmers

#97

Post by wvenable » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:22 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #82

wvenable wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure my error rate is a fraction what it used to be but I'm producing far more code and working on far larger problems. You better hope that areas of improvement on are the ones that scale to larger problems.

The original article was about error rate, that's what I was talking about: 1. write some code 2. run the code 3. get an error message 4. find the error and back to step 1 Hour by hour, day after day, I do this. Always searching for what's wrong with what I'm creating, rarely thinking about what's good about it. It's a negative reinforcement feedback loop. If the error rate was lower, steps 3 and 4 would happen less…

My original point was that #1 doesn't stay static -- if it did, then I'd be writing perfect code right now. Instead the code you write gets harder.

Even then, I don't think the author intended you to take that so literally. That's an easy way to describe the problem to someone who isn't a programmer. The negative feedback loop is much longer and more complicated than that.

Re: Be nice to programmers

#98

Post by trustfundbaby » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:22 PM UTC

I went to a tradeshow for my company a few weeks ago, where I got to just interact with potential customers all day. I had an absolute blast, by the end of the day where the other folks on the team were tired and ready to leave (I was the only developer), I was pumped and already thinking of how to come across even better to clients at the next day of the show. It made me realize how programming has adversely affected my demeanor and way I interact with people.

I realized that not so long ago, I was actually outgoing and cheerful most of the time, but programming has made me more surly and sometimes reactive in an insidious way. With programming you're always dealing with problems, and if you're not solving them in code, or being infuriated by something that you thought would take 30 mins but has blown your entire day, you're dealing with people problems.

"Why isn't this done?", "Why should we pay that much?", "When is it going to be done?", "How long do you think its going to take?", "Why is it going to take that long?", "Can you just squeeze this one thing into the iteration?", "That sounds easy", "Why is this broken?", "Who broke it", "Why can't you just code", "You ask too many questions" ... aaaaaack.

its just this steady barrage of crap you have to deal and you're usually the one saying "no", "we can't do that", "Why do you want to do that?" to where you just become this proxy for negativity even if you don't want to be, because ultimately you're going to be the guy cleaning up the shit when everything explodes because nobody thought to figure out how to do the whole thing properly.

Unless you're working at a real top notch engineering place, where half these questions don't come up or the top brass understand how the whole thing works, it can really mess with your attitude.

When I had that epiphany after the tradeshow, it really freaked me out to realize how professional programming was changing my attitude to people and life, so I don't think I'll be doing 100% development for much longer.

Re: Be nice to programmers

#99

Post by vambo » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:22 PM UTC

It really seems to me that in general programmers have such an good life that they (we) have to find something to complain about. I'm not pointing any fingers, since I often have the same thoughts. There was actually a quite nice article on HN lately (I read it on Sunday, but my google-fu is failing me), something along the likes of "Why wouldn't you want to be a programmer?", which arrived to the same conclusion as I usually do after trying to compare it to many other professions in an unbiased way: overall programming is quite a sweet deal.

I have to admit though that I never held any other jobs, so I'm very interested in reading about the opinions of those that have.

Re: Be nice to programmers

#100

Post by Sakes » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 7:34 PM UTC

wam wrote: post #92

Sakes wrote: post #34

This guy has not discovered what it means to be a programmer, he is simply in a phase of his programming life. Chasing down bugs all the time? Why? I don't do this, and when I run across a bug it is usually a quick fix and not a big deal. The goal is not to write it perfectly without bugs. The goal is to release it perfectly without bugs, and to do this all you have to do is test your code often as you make changes t…

Well, sure, but everything in life is a "phase." A whole career might be a phase. But that's not the point. This post clarifies a vague problem. It's great that you've avoided that. Good for you! Seriously. But to say that he hasn't "discovered what it means to be a programmer" isn't helpful: Someone doesn't feel amazing about being a programmer. Programming is amazing. Therefore that person is not (yet) a programmer…

I think I may have misrepresented myself. I have not avoided the buggy hell described above. I have lived through it. My point is, his problems are temporary and expected for anyone that cares to better themselves. So it is perfectly natural for him to be upset about it, and his emotions are valid.

What is dangerous is he is currently leaning towards the idea that to be a good programmer you must be pessimistic, always afraid of the all the crazy unknowns that might happen. This is wrong, there are techniques to avoid these problems that will naturally become part of his programming style over time. No need to be a pessimist, no need to be afraid. Just keep on plugging away and one day he will wake up and think, its weird that programming does not feel like I'm pushing a rock up a hill anymore.

Edit: Also I never said he was not a programmer, I said he didn't yet understand what it means to be one. We all go through this, and he will realize it eventually. I just hope he doesn't end up as jaded as his article assumes he will.