Live data from Hacker News

Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

andrewmccalip.com

91–100 of 282 posts

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is non rad hardened method get around this by basically doubling or some multiple of repeating calculations and chexking data often. Random errors will occur you just need to be checking fast enough to fix and update that bad bit flip. I am sure there's all sorts of fun algorithms in this space but I am under the impression there is SOME tax to doing this. What is the tax? Is it 10% ir 60% I have no…

There's more than that, it's possible to get permanent hardware damage from radiation at smaller (modern standard) process sizes.

I didn't think about that, so yeah, basically space based compute centers are just hype on top of hype.

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FCC regulates satellites launched from or communicating with the US, including stuff which extends beyond spectrum licensing like mandatory 5 year deorbiting capability for newly launched LEO satellites. Europe, China and India are not regulation-free utopias either. You've actually got more option to jurisdiction-shop with underwater data, but I'm not convinced that's the major issue with building datacentres an…

> FCC regulates satellites launched from or communicating with the US FCC is easier to deal with than multiple layers of environmental, planning, power, and water concerns at the local, state and federal levels. > they're not obviously favourable compared with cold place on earth with clear skies and access to cold water There are fewer of those places that can be developed than there is space. The bottleneck to spac…

> FCC is easier to deal with than multiple layers of environmental, planning, power, and water concerns at the local, state and federal levels.

If you get fed up of multiple layers of concerns and US specific bureaucracy, you simply move to a different country where a single authority is desperate to not only remove hurdles but might even give subsidies to someone that wants to employ lots of people to put up solar panels and give them a bit of surplus power and hot water. Chips and solar panels fit as easily in shipping containers as they do in spacecraft. The FCC actually has to handle the concerns of entities more concerned by the environmental impact of your megaconstellation because it's a 1km^2 wide missile travelling at 17,500 mph which much of the rest of the space industry is expected to expend propellant to evade where orbits intersect, which is a bit more concerning than 5km^2 of slightly less green fields and some question marks about water abstraction, and there aren't other authorities you can turn to. (Space is underregulated in terms of not having any practical traffic management beyond launch and spectrum licensing, but that's more risk rather than dream libertarian business opportunity; the FCC can still kibosh your project, you just won't get anyone clearing debris out your way)

Technically there is more space in space than Earth, but once you start factoring that convenient orbits for earth data transfer involve carving a high speed path which intersects with other spacecraft also moving at high speed and not all with as much control as they'd like it starts to look a lot less capacious. The Earth not about to run out of coastal regions with unbuilt land any time soon.

(SBSP has its own similar issues, of course)

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#93
post #56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of it is easy but neither is cooling impossible as many people are saying.

There’s a big difference between “impossible” (it isn’t) and “practical” (it isn’t).

What happened to "do things that don't scale"?

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#94

Will these space-based data centers run on rad-hard silicon (which is dog slow compared to anything on Earth) or just silently accept wrong results, hardware lockups and permanent failure due to the harsh space environment? Will they cool that hardware with special über-expensive high-temperature Peltiers that heat the radiators up to visible incandescence so that the heat can be shed with any efficiency? There's zil…

The LLMs they hope to have in those data centers already silently accept wrong results.

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#95

I am reminded of how space exploration has come largely before deep ocean exploration, seems like a human bias. Putting data centers under water makes way way more sense than into space.

Yeah try tell average eco joe you are planning to warm up oceans by 0.00000001% of what sun does already.

(I agree right now it probably makes sense, but decades and centuries away we probably don't want to warm up earth anymore. If anything space datacenters could provide shade for earth lol.)

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#96
this does not makes sense from dollars pov to me, I ran a back of napkin session with claude & gemini on this and the short of it is you need a magical weightless radiator for cooling and even then it wont work because the launch costs need to be sub $100 before this can be feasible. this does not even factors the 5y amortization and LEO orbit drag correction.

It then occurred to me that they (all major AI companies) know all of these facts but still pushing for it so there must be another reason. Then I recalled the offhand statement from the openAI lady about govt backstop for infra, which was strongly opposed by public and AI czar. this might be be a backdoor way of injecting that backstop capital in terms of subsidies now for results in 5 years or so. and needless to say after pilot programs those will fail spectacularly.

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#97
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starlink is however operating at ~500km where radiation is less of a concern, but where the lifetime of a satellite is only 2-3 years. The unit economics of orbital GPUs suggest that we'll need to run them for much longer than that. This is actually one of the few good points of orbital data centers, normally older hardware is cycled out because it's not economic to run anymore due to power efficiency improvements, b…

I think they last 2-3 years after they run out of argon fuel , so more like 7-8 years total. It looks like some Starlinks from Nov 2019 are still operational.

Or in theory, indefinitely,

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16527007 ("First firing of air-breathing electric thruster (esa.int)" (2018))

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#98
post #25

> ...we should be actively goading more billionaires into spending on irrational, high-variance projects that might actually advance civilization. I feel genuine secondhand embarrassment watching people torch their fortunes on yachts and status cosplay. No one cares about your Loro Piana. I 100% agree with this. There are ~2,600 billionaires in the world and we should encourage all of them to spend their money. Even…

> ”we should encourage all of them to spend their money. Even buying a superyacht is a benefit to the economy.” You’re falling victim to the ‘broken windows fallacy’ here; money which is invested is actually more productive in improving medium and long term economic productivity than ‘consumption’ goods. Even ‘retained’ money (under one’s mattress) is not net-negative, as it increases the value of its circulating cou…

Scenario A: Someone breaks a window and the homeowner buys a replacement.

Scenario B: A homeowner adds a new window to their home.

Scenario C: A homeowner buys an online-course to learn how to make windows and then adds one to their home.

Scenario A has approximately no benefit to the economy. The homeowner is no better off (same number of windows) but had to spend money. The window maker might be better off, but only to the same extent that the homeowner is worse off.

I totally agree that Scenario A is not a benefit to the economy. That's the "broken window fallacy".

But Scenario B is definitely better for the economy. The homeowner has decided that having a new window is better than having the money. So the homeowner is better off. The window maker is also better off because they get the money. This is what happens when a billionaire buys a yacht.

Scenario C is the best. The homeowner has a new skill, which they can use to add more windows to their house or maybe their neighbors' houses. Over time, the amount of money spent on window-making will decrease, but the number of windows will stay constant or increase. That's a net benefit. And the online-course creator still made money.

This is what Musk is doing. He is developing new technologies that enable new capabilities and/or make existing things cheaper (e.g., electric cars, access to space, rural internet connectivity).

There is also Scenario D: The homeowner doesn't buy a new window but just keeps his money under his mattress. This is clearly the worst for the economy. Hording money like that means that there is less money circulating and lowered economic activity. The window maker is worse off, and even the homeowner is worse off if they would like to have a new window.

Billionaires who don't spend their money are the real danger, not the ones who tweet too much.

Investing their money is slightly better in that it makes the price of borrowing cheaper. But that only helps up to a point. Someone has to spend money or else there's no point in being able to borrow some. So I wish more billionaires were following Scenario C.

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SpaceX has never met any milestone that Elon has ever set.

OTOH they have achieved many things that experienced people said were impossible or would never make financial sense.

OTOH they have a huge batshit crazy fanbase of boot lickers who are so gullible they'll believe and parrot anything Elon says.

Re: Economics of Orbital vs. Terrestrial Data Centers

#100

Will these space-based data centers run on rad-hard silicon (which is dog slow compared to anything on Earth) or just silently accept wrong results, hardware lockups and permanent failure due to the harsh space environment? Will they cool that hardware with special über-expensive high-temperature Peltiers that heat the radiators up to visible incandescence so that the heat can be shed with any efficiency? There's zil…

> Will…

I think “won’t”. I could be wrong of course, but I imagine efforts to put servers into orbit will die before anything is launched. It’s just a bad idea. Maybe a few grifters will make bank taking suckers’ money before it becomes common knowledge that this is stupid, but I will be genuinely surprised if real servers with GPUs are launched.

I don’t mean to be facetious here. But saying “will” is treating it as inevitable that this will happen, which is how the grifters win.

Post reply on HN